my nonpilot friend logging hours

dpilot83 said:
IIt has been my understanding that the reason we can do this is that our ops specs has a provision for it, although I couldn't quote it for you. If I wasn't studying for a checkride I'd try to get some more details for you.
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One may only log SIC if the =regulations= require another pilot. That may be 2-pilot required aircraft or operations where there is a regulatory requirement for it, such as safety pilots under 91.109, or passenger flights under IFR under 135.101.

Arguably, if an FAA-approved OpSpec =requires= an SIC, then it fits within the regulation. I haven't looked at many, but the ones I have seen have been permissive only. None I've seen say that the flight must have an SIC or the FAA will bust the operation.

"It's a nice idea," "insurance requires it," and "I feel like having an extra pilot on board" are all very nice but don't qualify as "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted," a precondition for logging SIC time uder 61.51(f).

BTW, that is not to suggest that the time spent performing crew duties is not valuable or that experience doing it would not give someone a leg up for a job. Just that it doesn't belong in a SIC column that is being kept to show FAA flight time.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I don't have a problem with the poster logging PIC, but I'd like so see someone explain how a non-pilot under the hood may log PIC (that is countable for FAA purposes and not just as a memento equivalent to logging time in a 767 while sitting in seat 23B).

Paraphrasing 61.51(e), the hooded pilot in the usual safety pilot situation logs PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft the pilot is rated for.
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The poster cannot log any flight time during which he is not manipulating the flight controls unless he is exercising his CFI priveleges. Period. If he has no CFI, neither person can legally log PIC whil the non-rated person is the sole manipulator.
 
Disagree. If the rated pilot allows his friend to fly for a minute, the rated pilot is still "acting" as PIC, regardless.
 
JAM said:
The poster cannot log any flight time during which he is not manipulating the flight controls unless he is exercising his CFI priveleges. Period. If he has no CFI, neither person can legally log PIC whil the non-rated person is the sole manipulator.
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You have to remember the definition of PIC in part 1.

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
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edit: you're right about no one being able to log PIC time according to 61.51.


The poster meets all three requirements of the PIC definition whether he flies, his friend flies, or his dog flies.....
now the practicality of the issue arises. are they timing each and every second the other guy is flying? or are two sets of hands on the controls making sure the plane doesn't fall out of the sky? for all intents and purposes, I'd say that when a non-rated or trained pilot is flying an aircraft which I'm responsible for, I'm PIC and I'm logging it..
 
launchpad said:
You have to remember the definition of PIC in part 1.



edit: you're right about no one being able to log PIC time according to 61.51.


The poster meets all three requirements of the PIC definition whether he flies, his friend flies, or his dog flies.....
now the practicality of the issue arises. are they timing each and every second the other guy is flying? or are two sets of hands on the controls making sure the plane doesn't fall out of the sky? for all intents and purposes, I'd say that when a non-rated or trained pilot is flying an aircraft which I'm responsible for, I'm PIC and I'm logging it..
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I think you are touching on the point you need to understand. There is a difference between acting and logging. I say log whatever you want. It is your logbook. Of course, that doesn't make it compliant with 61.51. :rolleyes:
 
launchpad said:
You have to remember the definition of PIC in part 1..
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JAM is absolutely correct on this point. What you have to remember is that no matter who is actually the acting PIC as defined by FAR 1, who may =log= PIC time is controlled by FAR 61.51.

In 61.51, you will find rated pilots able to log PIC because they are the only ones manipulating the flight controls (even if they are not in the least qualified). And you will find rated pilots able to log PIC when acting as PIC while someone else is doing the flying - but =only= on a flight where the regs require more than one pilot.

What you will =not= find is anything that says that you may log PIC just because you are the PIC.

(BTW, that said, I will still go along with you that you may log PIC if you are the only rated pilot on board. My reason is an unpublished and unverified FA Legal opinion that I came across a few years ago through someone who worked for the FAA)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Did you catch the title of the thread? The friend is not a pilot.
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Did you catch the part I quoted? I was responding to the following question:
so if my pilot friend and I go flying and he is flying the plane and i'm helping him with radios and all, I can't log SIC?
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I assumed he was talking about a different friend.
 
sorry my response was the about the general misunderstanding about PIC logging. I assumed they were both appropriatly rated pilots. my bad
 
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