my heart dropped

MTRs scare me. Depending on where you are in the country there are SO many of them and while they are marked pretty well on most sectionals, it can be hard to go from point A to point B with out crossing them. I made it a point never to instruct maneuvers over one and to try to not parallel one but I still had some close up views of A10s and F16s transitioning between Luke, DM and the Sells MOA and live fire areas near Yuma and Gila Bend.
 
There was a great article in AOPA Pilot a while ago which showed just what the dangers are of flying in a hot MOA.

Is it legal to operate in one?

Sure.

But legal doesn't mean smart.
 
BobDDuck said:
MTRs scare me. Depending on where you are in the country there are SO many of them and while they are marked pretty well on most sectionals, it can be hard to go from point A to point B with out crossing them. I made it a point never to instruct maneuvers over one and to try to not parallel one but I still had some close up views of A10s and F16s transitioning between Luke, DM and the Sells MOA and live fire areas near Yuma and Gila Bend.
Click to expand...


Flying out of Marana, AZ, i was headed back to the pattern about 5000' MSL when 2 hogs were inbound to DM passed/overtook me in wide approach formation about 500' above me.

Another story my instructor told me, he and a student were doing inst. appch training fbetween TUS to RYN and two ANG F-16s came up inverted over top them and gave them a thumbs up. Don't know if that's just hanger flying, but a cool story.

P.S. 1st paragraph is all true
 
Yeah, I was once flying on an extremely rainy night in an a-10, couldn't see anything. Me and my wingman took our a-10s and set up a strafing run of some bunkers. I pretty nervous because we were without air cover and there was lots of flak but I made it through ok. Then I shot down some migs with the 30mm.



But I was tired, so I exited ace combat 4 and shut the PS2 off :)
 
You shoud have tuned in the Emergency Freq and said over the air:

"Praise ALLAH! I have the Infidel A-10's in sight and am switching to guns!!"

Try that next time.... they LOVE it!! :bandit:































Seriously - don't do that. (Duuuuuuh-----HUCK!! :crazy: )
 
Next time, on the radio: Demand they surrender immediately. Wave your handy CFI leathermantool (the sharp edged parts) at them menacingly as they pass you so that they know you mean businesses.
 
crazynut52 said:
I knew I had done nothing wrong, but was so nervous, I immediately turned on 121.50 in my second radio to listen.
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So, then my question is, why were you not doing that in the FIRST place, as required by NOTAM?

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0. IF AN AIRCRAFT IS INTERCEPTED BY U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND FLARES ARE DISPENSED, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE TO BE FOLLOWED: FOLLOW THE INTERCEPT'S VISUAL SIGNALS, CONTACT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IMMEDIATELY ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY OR ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF GUARD 243.0, AND COMPLY WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE INTERCEPTING AIRCRAFT INCLUDING VISUAL SIGNALS IF UNABLE RADIO CONTACT. BE ADVISED THAT NONCOMPLIANCE MAY RESULT IN THE USE OF FORCE.
 
seagull said:
So, then my question is, why were you not doing that in the FIRST place, as required by NOTAM?

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0. IF AN AIRCRAFT IS INTERCEPTED BY U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND FLARES ARE DISPENSED, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE TO BE FOLLOWED: FOLLOW THE INTERCEPT'S VISUAL SIGNALS, CONTACT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IMMEDIATELY ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY OR ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF GUARD 243.0, AND COMPLY WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE INTERCEPTING AIRCRAFT INCLUDING VISUAL SIGNALS IF UNABLE RADIO CONTACT. BE ADVISED THAT NONCOMPLIANCE MAY RESULT IN THE USE OF FORCE.
Click to expand...
Hehe I was waiting for someone to post this....
 
crazynut52 said:
Today I was flying an intro flight with a student. We were flying about 1000 AGL around some islands, and outside of the nearby MOA. Suddenly two A-10's fly under us in slow flight. They were definitely very close. Then they proceeded to rock their wings. All I could think about was the Cessna 150 who was intercepted in the ADIZ a while back. I knew I had done nothing wrong, but was so nervous, I immediately turned on 121.50 in my second radio to listen. I didn't hear anything. The second A-10 flew a circle around me, and rocked his wings, and then they both accelerated away at a high speed. The student thought it was the best sight in the world, and if it weren't the post 9-11 days I would have enjoyed the show too, but boy was I nervous. Living near a MOA, I had heard stories of the military aircraft giving shows to general aviation on occasion, but not in the past 10-15 years. So I was probably the most nervous flight instructor in North America for those few minutes, with the happiest intro student ever. He is definitely coming back for lessons starting this week.
Click to expand...

seagull said:
So, then my question is, why were you not doing that in the FIRST place, as required by NOTAM?

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0. IF AN AIRCRAFT IS INTERCEPTED BY U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND FLARES ARE DISPENSED, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE TO BE FOLLOWED: FOLLOW THE INTERCEPT'S VISUAL SIGNALS, CONTACT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IMMEDIATELY ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY OR ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF GUARD 243.0, AND COMPLY WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE INTERCEPTING AIRCRAFT INCLUDING VISUAL SIGNALS IF UNABLE RADIO CONTACT. BE ADVISED THAT NONCOMPLIANCE MAY RESULT IN THE USE OF FORCE.
Click to expand...

Doing which part in the first place? Monitoring guard, or complying with intercept procedures?

If it's monitoring guard, the words "if capable" kind of make that requirement less than firm. Even if the plane has two radios as the OP's did, that second radio might be used for something else.

For example, some companies use the second radio as a company internal freq.

If it's intercept procedures you are referring to, the OP was not intercepted. The NOTAM states Flares - but of course wings rocking means intercept as well. However, the previously mentioned AIM 5-6-4: DAY-Rocking wings from a position slightly above and ahead of, and normally to the left of, the intercepted aircraft and, after acknowledgement, a slow level turn, normally to the left, on to the desired heading. This procedure never occurred.

And I swear I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt... I just think a "requirement" to monitor 121.5 in a GA aircraft is a little out there. Military radios - at least in the Army - have a setting so you can talk/listen on a frequency AND monitor ground at the same time. Heck - maybe airlines have that too - I don't know.
 
Ian J said:
Doing which part in the first place? Monitoring guard, or complying with intercept procedures?

If it's monitoring guard, the words "if capable" kind of make that requirement less than firm. Even if the plane has two radios as the OP's did, that second radio might be used for something else.

For example, some companies use the second radio as a company internal freq.


And I swear I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt... I just think a "requirement" to monitor 121.5 in a GA aircraft is a little out there. Military radios - at least in the Army - have a setting so you can talk/listen on a frequency AND monitor ground at the same time. Heck - maybe airlines have that too - I don't know.
Click to expand...

Did you read the initial post? He said he had a second radio. He is a CFI. Maybe some exist, but I have never heard of a flight school requiring you to monitor them for messages!
 
He might have been on a local practice area freq, he might have been monitoring an untowered field he was planning on doing some landing/approach work at, he could have been on a company freq (several flight schools I've instructed around have had them), he could have been pulling up ATIS at another airport... Well, you get the point. Also, trying to teach, monitor Potomac Approach and have all the chatter on guard ("Dulles Ops American XXX in range") can be a little tough some times.
 
BobDDuck said:
but I still had some close up views of A10s and F16s transitioning between Luke, DM and the Sells MOA and live fire areas near Yuma and Gila Bend.
Click to expand...

Some of the best photographs I have taken from the air have been closeups of A10s and F16s at Fagan (TUS).
 
Hacker15e said:
Yes, but it's not.....very.....smart. There's a reason that the military has MOAs. Civil traffic flying through an active MOA at a minimum disrupts the training going on in there. Given the very limited training flight hours that military pilots get, it is a little rude.
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Wow - that's a coincidence . . . military traffic practicing at my civilian airfield disrupts my freight schedule! Given the very limited time that my schedule gives me, it's a little rude (especially when there are lots of restricted areas and warning areas that I can't even access . . . ).

Whodathunkit!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Wow - that's a coincidence . . . military traffic practicing at my civilian airfield disrupts my freight schedule! Given the very limited time that my schedule gives me, it's a little rude (especially when there are lots of restricted areas and warning areas that I can't even access . . . ).

Whodathunkit!
Click to expand...

Roger that! Where I am training right now, you can draw a 100 mile circle around the airfield and the whole damn thing is 4 different MOAs. There is no way you can operate outside of an MOA here. The best practice that I have been taught is to get on with the approach/center freq for the MOA that you are in, and they ARE MORE THAN HAPPY to provide traffic advisories for you....Think about it. You are participating with them for YOUR safety as well as the training aircraft they are responsible for monitoring. Just pull up a sectional or WAC for KGTR. You will see what I mean. We are dodging T-37s and T-6s all day long in our practice area. And, the controllers are more than happy to let EVERYBODY know that there is a 17deuce out in the VIC so that they stay away and alert too.

RickyRhodesII can chime in on this one, as he is one of the controllers there and he also flies at the same school that I am flying at. Rude...oh, I don't think so. Those military trainers eff up our pattern all day long.
 
BobDDuck said:
He might have been on a local practice area freq, he might have been monitoring an untowered field he was planning on doing some landing/approach work at, he could have been on a company freq (several flight schools I've instructed around have had them), he could have been pulling up ATIS at another airport... Well, you get the point. Also, trying to teach, monitor Potomac Approach and have all the chatter on guard ("Dulles Ops American XXX in range") can be a little tough some times.
Click to expand...

As my first instructor would say "So, is THAT what you're going to tell your passengers....?" meaning, after the accident.
 
seagull said:
Did you read the initial post? He said he had a second radio. He is a CFI. Maybe some exist, but I have never heard of a flight school requiring you to monitor them for messages!
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I sure did. In fact, I quoted the initial post. And, in my post, I said these exact words: Even if the plane has two radios as the OP's did...

See BobDDuck's response - that's where I was going with it.


seagull said:
As my first instructor would say "So, is THAT what you're going to tell your passengers....?" meaning, after the accident.
Click to expand...

Not listening to 121.5 on a second radio (if you have one) will now cause an accident? I thought we were talking about it for intercept purposes. And if one IS intercepted, they're supposed to turn to 121.5 anyway.

I guess I don't see where your going with all this. Do you really think the OP is wrong for not monitoring 121.5? Is this a hot-button issue with you for some reason?
 
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