my heart dropped

C

crazynut52

New Member
Today I was flying an intro flight with a student. We were flying about 1000 AGL around some islands, and outside of the nearby MOA. Suddenly two A-10's fly under us in slow flight. They were definitely very close. Then they proceeded to rock their wings. All I could think about was the Cessna 150 who was intercepted in the ADIZ a while back. I knew I had done nothing wrong, but was so nervous, I immediately turned on 121.50 in my second radio to listen. I didn't hear anything. The second A-10 flew a circle around me, and rocked his wings, and then they both accelerated away at a high speed. The student thought it was the best sight in the world, and if it weren't the post 9-11 days I would have enjoyed the show too, but boy was I nervous. Living near a MOA, I had heard stories of the military aircraft giving shows to general aviation on occasion, but not in the past 10-15 years. So I was probably the most nervous flight instructor in North America for those few minutes, with the happiest intro student ever. He is definitely coming back for lessons starting this week.
 
Wow man, they should have at least given you a shout on the radio to reassure you didn't do anything wrong and they were just saying hello.

That would have scared the heck out of me.
 
They are lucky you didnt decide to switch to guns;)


That must have been scary... Its a shame things have to be like that.
 
Airdale said:
Wow man, they should have at least given you a shout on the radio to reassure you didn't do anything wrong and they were just saying hello.

That would have scared the heck out of me.
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did.... I.... do... something wrong? :panic:

I would have just told the student to hang on tight and go inverted :rawk:
 
MikeBurbank said:
They are lucky you didnt decide to switch to guns;)


That must have been scary... Its a shame things have to be like that.
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bwahahah 30mm HE rounds on a cessna

OUCH!

[yt]bWVUniAde2s[/yt]

You should have done a formation flight. do a line abreast
 
Back in my student days in the mighty T-41 Fightin' Mescalero (C-172), we were out in our training area doing some maneuver or the other, when suddenly my instructor says (shouts?), "I HAVE THE AIRCRAFT," pulls, rolls, and I'm looking down on the TOP of an F-4 (like I told ya--I been doing this for a while!;)) not too far below us.

Silly me, I thought the fun was over, but my instructor was looking around like crazy. That's when he told me that they usually fly in pairs, and he didn't know if that was the lead guy or the wingman--who might well have been at our altitude.

So I know how you felt!
 
Fly4Pay said:
Back in my student days in the mighty T-41 Fightin' Mescalero (C-172), we were out in our training area doing some maneuver or the other, when suddenly my instructor says (shouts?), "I HAVE THE AIRCRAFT," pulls, rolls, and I'm looking down on the TOP of an F-4 (like I told ya--I been doing this for a while!;)) not too far below us.
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You flight train at Hondo?
 
probably just having some fun with you. We would occasionally have some twin cessna's for some reason beyond us..come straight through our very active moa's..one flight in particular I was flying a form flight with an Aussie IP and he insisted on us rolling in on the cessna. It was a blast..we "gunned" him down and climbed back to the top of the block..funny thing was that the 310 driver probably had no idea what had occurred.
 
Fly4Pay said:
Silly me, I thought the fun was over, but my instructor was looking around like crazy. That's when he told me that they usually fly in pairs, and he didn't know if that was the lead guy or the wingman--who might well have been at our altitude.
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I hate non standard formation. The closest I ever came to getting nailed in the CRJ was over eastern NC when a flight of F18s came out of Cherry Point. We were still on with center and they were only talking to the lead who was squawking 500 feet above us and reporting a nonstandard formation. We saw him on TCAS and then visual along with a trail element right behind and above him. They zipped right in front of us closely followed by a third who was at our altitude. He saw us and pretty much went vertical to get out of the way. I *think* he would have passed in front of us either way, but it would have been very close.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
You can fly in a moa no prob :)
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Yes, but it's not.....very.....smart. There's a reason that the military has MOAs. Civil traffic flying through an active MOA at a minimum disrupts the training going on in there. Given the very limited training flight hours that military pilots get, it is a little rude. Even worse, it could actually be a safety hazard to both you and the fast movers.

crazynut52 said:
Yes, but I didn't expect military aircraft to be outside the moa....
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How do you think they get to and from MOAs? How about cross country navigation? Military aircraft participate in the FAA airspace system just like any other civil traffic.

Berkut said:
I bet they didn't have VHF.
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I'm pretty sure Hogs have Victor.

I have flown by/around GA aircraft flying through MOAs and waggled my wings at 'em. Never once have I bothered to clutter up 121.5 to let them know what I was doing, lest every pilot in line-of-sight know about it, too. So long as I remain well clear, then all's well, right? :sarcasm:
 
From the flight information handbook, available here:
https://164.214.2.62/products/usfif/v0011/www_plan/plan/fih.pdf


The Flight Information Handbook said:
Signal:DAY or NIGHT - Rocking aircraft and flashing navigational lights at irregular intervals (and landing lights in the case of a helicopter) from a position slightly above and ahead of, and normally to the left of, the intercepted aircraft (or to the right if the intercepted aircraft is a helicopter) and, after acknowledgment, a slow level turn, normally to the left, (or to the right in the case of a helicopter) on the desired heading.


Meaning:You have been intercepted. Follow me.​

Acknowledgement: DAY or NIGHT -Rocking aircraft, flashing navigational lights at irregular intervals and following. Understood, will comply.​

NOTE 1: Meteorological conditions or terrain may require the intercepting aircraft to reverse the positions and direction of turn given above in Series 1.​

NOTE 2: ​

​

If the intercepted aircraft is not able to keep pace with the intercepting aircraft, the latter is expected to fly a series of race-track patterns and to rock the aircraft each time it passes the intercepted aircraft.

​
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That all being said, I've frequently used a wing rock if I'm called out as traffic to another aircraft, as a way to help the other guy find me visually. Sometimes that little bit of exta motion is all a guy needs to pick you up with his eyes. There are some USAF aircraft that don't have a VHF radio still, but have to imagine if you were really being intercepted they would have found a way to have center or someone else call you on VHF.​

I won't guarantee that, however. A few weeks ago, I heard some army guys on UHF guard calling out to some Cessna somewhere that he had flown into a restricted area.​

You were probably ok, though. Especially if there were no phone calls or people waiting for you on the ground at your landing location.​


​
 
I had something similar happen to me about a month ago. The scary part is that I instruct inside the ADIZ and was just outside of it doing maneuvers with a student. We were out doing basic climbs and descents when I spotted 2 f-16s in formation about 1 mile away. I figured they were just out flying to an MOA somewhere.

So I turned to keep our distance away and then a while later they were back in front of me. No wing rocking or anything like that. Everywhere we went, they went, about 1 mile out. Being made paranoied because of instructing in the ADIZ, I tuned to 121.5 but didn't hear anything. I decided it best to head on back to the airport.

After we landed I was talking to some of the people who run the FBO here and one of them said they saw a very large military chopper fly through the area and then heard the sound of jets coming from above the scattered layer, so we assumed they were just doing some escoring and decided to check out our mighty Katana...I think they were just jealous.
 
So, I'm actually a little surprised that nobody responded to my statement above about GA pilots flying into active MOAs -- that was not the response that I expected at all.

When I get into discussions with friends and acquaintances who are civil pilots, the subject of MTRs and MOAs comes up frequently. Generally the opinion that they have is they have every right to fly through both of them, as there is nothing saying that they cannot.

Having been a GA pilot before getting into the AF, I think I was also one of those folks that felt that I had a "right" to fly through a MOA. Besides, when the gas was being paid out of my own pocket, flying around a MOA or avoiding an MTR was a decent hit to my wallet.

Frankly that is the response I expected to see here, and I deliberately left the wording of my post so as to be just slightly provocative...

See, there is an equal and opposite part of the problem among military pilots. The vast majority of military pilots were not FAA licensed pilots before joining the military. Most of them do not participate in GA flying, and thus only know what it's like to fly as part of the military. Their attitude is frequently one of 'we own the MOA/MTR, civil airplanes need to get out of our way'.

The reality is, both civil and military flyers share the same US airspace. We each have unique needs, and unfortunately we're largely ignorant as to what those needs are in the other. The great part is that we can both coexist peacefully if we just show each other a little common courtesy.
 
We used to have some guys from the local F-16 guard wing come over to the flight school where I taught to talk about MOAs and how it wasn't a great idea to fly through when hot. It was pretty enlightening and always lead to some great stories.

Bottom line, if at all possible stay away from a hot MOA.
 
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