mightynimbus
Well-Known Member
Air Tactical Group Supervisor
My first flight as an Air Attack pilot
- Thread starter DE727UPS
- Start date
Air Tactical Group Supervisor
yes. I fail in correcting my autocorrect. Ha!
inigo88
Composite-lover
Not as applicable to this conversation of USFS contract aircraft, but I come from the land of CAL FIRE (formerly CDF) and it’s the same story with their Grumman S-2T tankers as it is with your SEATs above. Also the standard CAL FIRE Air Attack used in many parts of California is an OV-10 Bronco, which is badass
.The S-2Ts are maneuverable enough that no lead plane is required, and they tend to dispatch one OV-10 Air Attack, two S-2T tankers and a copter for vegetation initial attack.
I know Mike already knows this part, but for the benefit of the less initiated readers: Air Attack orbits high over the FTA and then tankers are altitude separated in the stack below and cleared in to drop one at a time by Air Attack. The tankers also orbit opposite of air attack to help see and avoid. If too many tankers are in the stack I’ve seen air attack put them at an intermediate holding fix and then clear them into the stack, clear to drop and then clear to depart for load and return.
Anatomy of the firefighting airspace:
Source and good overview: How aerial firefighters attack wildfires with air tankers, Broncos, and Super Hueys – Midwest ATC
I mentioned getting ahold of an ICS205 Radio Communications form earlier because I’ve always been impressed with the complexity of radio traffic the ATGS has to monitor.
They are (and I’m probably missing some):
VHF FM radio:
- “Air Tactics” channel - where Air Attack coordinates and directs the tankers on where to drop.
- “Command channel” - ATGS coordinates with IC and dispatch.
- “Air to Ground” - ATGS coordinates with IC/ops/branch/division leadership on where to drop and feedback on drop
- “GUARD” - Their radios monitor FM firefighting guard, a separate channel not to be confused with aviation VHF/UHF AM guard.
- (Note that all the ground division units get dedicated VHF FM tactical channels, but I don’t believe those are monitored by the ATGS.)
- “Air to Air” - Tankers have an air to air freq on the aviation radio to coordinate their positions and keep track of each other and air attack for collision avoidance.
- “Helicopter Air Tactics” (I forget the official term) - The helos on the incident are relegated to VHF AM aviation radios for comms. On small incidents they report to the ATGS, while on larger incidents they get their own helicopter air attack called the Helicopter Coordinator (HLCO, pronounced “Hel-Co”).
- “Briefing channel” - On a big incident the air attack aircraft work in shifts, so the outgoing ATGS will brief the incoming ATGS on a dedicated frequency.
Edit: These things are complicated.
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Yup, the larger the incident and the more resources involved, the more delegation of section management occurs. Normally air attack controls both the fixed wing and the helos, but if there’s a lot of them, helos will get their own boss and get chopped away, so to speak. Like this last fire in my area the other week, I would coordinate with either an air attack or a leadplane for going through their FTA, which at first was one frequency. And later became a separate fixed wing and rotary wing freq as number of air assets grew.
stroboli62
Well-Known Member
Nicely done!!Not as applicable to this conversation of USFS contract aircraft, but I come from the land of CAL FIRE (formerly CDF) and it’s the same story with their Grumman S-2T tankers as it is with your SEATs above. Also the standard CAL FIRE Air Attack used in many parts of California is an OV-10 Bronco, which is badass
The S-2Ts are maneuverable enough that no lead plane is required, and they tend to dispatch one OV-10 Air Attack, two S-2T tankers and a copter for vegetation initial attack.
I know Mike already knows this part, but for the benefit of the less initiated readers: Air Attack orbits high over the FTA and then tankers are altitude separated in the stack below and cleared in to drop one at a time by Air Attack. The tankers also orbit opposite of air attack to help see and avoid. If too many tankers are in the stack I’ve seen air attack put them at an intermediate holding fix and then clear them into the stack, clear to drop and then clear to depart for load and return.
Anatomy of the firefighting airspace:
Source and good overview: How aerial firefighters attack wildfires with air tankers, Broncos, and Super Hueys – Midwest ATC
I mentioned getting ahold of an ICS205 Radio Communications form earlier because I’ve always been impressed with the complexity of radio traffic the ATGS has to monitor.
They are (and I’m probably missing some):
VHF FM radio:
VHF AM Radio:
- “Air Tactics” channel - where Air Attack coordinates and directs the tankers on where to drop.
- “Command channel” - ATGS coordinates with IC and dispatch.
- “Air to Ground” - ATGS coordinates with IC/ops/branch/division leadership on where to drop and feedback on drop
- “GUARD” - Their radios monitor FM firefighting guard, a separate channel not to be confused with aviation VHF/UHF AM guard.
- (Note that all the ground division units get dedicated VHF FM tactical channels, but I don’t believe those are monitored by the ATGS.)
With all this radio chatter going on I have incredible respect for ATGS for keeping situational awareness. It makes sense why they need so many FM and AM radios, and why the FM radio units (and their custom audio panels) are so complicated. I imagine they appreciate any help the pilot can give with splitting some of the workload.
- “Air to Air” - Tankers have an air to air freq on the aviation radio to coordinate their positions and keep track of each other and air attack for collision avoidance.
- “Helicopter Air Tactics” (I forget the official term) - The helos on the incident are relegated to VHF AM aviation radios for comms. On small incidents they report to the ATGS, while on larger incidents they get their own helicopter air attack called the Helicopter Coordinator (HLCO, pronounced “Hel-Co”).
- “Briefing channel” - On a big incident the air attack aircraft work in shifts, so the outgoing ATGS will brief the incoming ATGS on a dedicated frequency.
Edit: These things are complicated.
View attachment 65773
View attachment 65774
Better thean the NWCG FTA "flat screen" 8.5X11" Poster I see so much of
Looks like better Technisonics gear, too!!
an audio panel with 6 comm radios and then a "music" input did make me giggleNot as applicable to this conversation of USFS contract aircraft, but I come from the land of CAL FIRE (formerly CDF) and it’s the same story with their Grumman S-2T tankers as it is with your SEATs above. Also the standard CAL FIRE Air Attack used in many parts of California is an OV-10 Bronco, which is badass
The S-2Ts are maneuverable enough that no lead plane is required, and they tend to dispatch one OV-10 Air Attack, two S-2T tankers and a copter for vegetation initial attack.
I know Mike already knows this part, but for the benefit of the less initiated readers: Air Attack orbits high over the FTA and then tankers are altitude separated in the stack below and cleared in to drop one at a time by Air Attack. The tankers also orbit opposite of air attack to help see and avoid. If too many tankers are in the stack I’ve seen air attack put them at an intermediate holding fix and then clear them into the stack, clear to drop and then clear to depart for load and return.
Anatomy of the firefighting airspace:
Source and good overview: How aerial firefighters attack wildfires with air tankers, Broncos, and Super Hueys – Midwest ATC
I mentioned getting ahold of an ICS205 Radio Communications form earlier because I’ve always been impressed with the complexity of radio traffic the ATGS has to monitor.
They are (and I’m probably missing some):
VHF FM radio:
VHF AM Radio:
- “Air Tactics” channel - where Air Attack coordinates and directs the tankers on where to drop.
- “Command channel” - ATGS coordinates with IC and dispatch.
- “Air to Ground” - ATGS coordinates with IC/ops/branch/division leadership on where to drop and feedback on drop
- “GUARD” - Their radios monitor FM firefighting guard, a separate channel not to be confused with aviation VHF/UHF AM guard.
- (Note that all the ground division units get dedicated VHF FM tactical channels, but I don’t believe those are monitored by the ATGS.)
With all this radio chatter going on I have incredible respect for ATGS for keeping situational awareness. It makes sense why they need so many FM and AM radios, and why the FM radio units (and their custom audio panels) are so complicated. I imagine they appreciate any help the pilot can give with splitting some of the workload.
- “Air to Air” - Tankers have an air to air freq on the aviation radio to coordinate their positions and keep track of each other and air attack for collision avoidance.
- “Helicopter Air Tactics” (I forget the official term) - The helos on the incident are relegated to VHF AM aviation radios for comms. On small incidents they report to the ATGS, while on larger incidents they get their own helicopter air attack called the Helicopter Coordinator (HLCO, pronounced “Hel-Co”).
- “Briefing channel” - On a big incident the air attack aircraft work in shifts, so the outgoing ATGS will brief the incoming ATGS on a dedicated frequency.
Edit: These things are complicated.
View attachment 65773
View attachment 65774
mightynimbus
Well-Known Member
The older 136B is a better radio.
The PS Engineering PAC 45 is an awesome audio panel compared to the Tech "chiclet" audio panel.
here you go, if you want to learn beyond carding ride.
also in Region 6 you can come across DCS (not actual digital) frequencies, but the ATGS should be familiar.
mightynimbus
Well-Known Member
Might already be answered up thread,
Dauntless is the contractor that has the contract fire bosses at Deer Park, (and other locations)
they are Air Tractor 802's on floats.
Dauntless Air
Dauntless Air is an aerial firefighting company that exists to protect people, land and property. We fly to win the war against wildfires. Click to learn how you can strengthen your initial response and direct air attack capabilities for today's changing environment.
www.dauntlessair.com
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inigo88
Composite-lover
Really appreciate that! I’ve never been directly involved in aerial firefighting (was a fire explorer and search and rescue volunteer), but I really admire those of you who do it. Figured I could try and help bridge the gap for those on the aviation side who would like to learn more about the fire side.
As for the Technisonics pics I made some liberal use of Google image search to find close ups of the audio panel and radio head, in reality what I showed is probably more LE helo oriented and less fire oriented, but reasonably close.
mightynimbus
Well-Known Member
stroboli62
Well-Known Member
Here's a little ditty from the LMA Aviation world and the "shortages of ATGSs"
MAYBE if one didn't spend 5-10 yrs as a Division Supervisor (DIVS) or strictly on the ground and did all the NWCG 310-1 dance and went with some hungry CFIs who like a different side hustle because on page 8 it mentions "there are those who do not do well flying in a small plane going in circles for hours at a time.....position is not for everyone."
Just a little info from years on past
MAYBE if one didn't spend 5-10 yrs as a Division Supervisor (DIVS) or strictly on the ground and did all the NWCG 310-1 dance and went with some hungry CFIs who like a different side hustle because on page 8 it mentions "there are those who do not do well flying in a small plane going in circles for hours at a time.....position is not for everyone."
Just a little info from years on past
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
That doc may be old.Anatomy of the firefighting airspace:
In CA a King Air is high above the fire sending a wealth of data via satellite (dome on top) to the fire fighting command post. Two of them are based at Chino and were recently on a 60 minutes story. Speaking with the KA pilots, the tanker pilots can navigate a line through the smoke like they are shooting an instrument approach. It's even possible the drop can be activated remotely.
Took this a few years ago. I was just above the TFR. Tankers were going in and out of the smoke.
Boomers above the fire.
Dodging the news choppers. I kept changing course and this guy would always turn into me. Finally held my course and gave him a little scare. Pre ADS-B
How they water the grass runway at Columbia - o22
Lawman
Well-Known Member
Everything about this reads like a FAC-A requirement that is being done by an organization going through motions and doing like what they’ve seen in movies…
Air to ground effects is a precise and time sensitive effort. The fact they don’t put the effort into working that out on the ground ahead of time and instead opt for the “we will do it live!” method equates to fully half that effort being pissed away in the atmosphere as nothing more than noise and smoke.
Hi I’m here all week, try the veal, and yes to anybody reading this thinking “wtf does he know about it,” I’ve been an air mission commander and stack warden as well as a FAC-A, so yeah I’ll happily come see you demo the system and then show you how it should be done after a half dozen flights to get my feet under me in whatever platform you’re sporting.
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Air to ground effects is a precise and time sensitive effort. The fact they don’t put the effort into working that out on the ground ahead of time and instead opt for the “we will do it live!” method equates to fully half that effort being pissed away in the atmosphere as nothing more than noise and smoke.
Hi I’m here all week, try the veal, and yes to anybody reading this thinking “wtf does he know about it,” I’ve been an air mission commander and stack warden as well as a FAC-A, so yeah I’ll happily come see you demo the system and then show you how it should be done after a half dozen flights to get my feet under me in whatever platform you’re sporting.
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DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I think the ATGS guys know what they are doing. All I have met have been impressive. The pilots job is to get them on the fire and fly around in circles. It's not really that hard. I just wish I knew more about the process and procedures before hand. But that's just me because I'm curious and want to be over prepared. There literally ARE lives on the line with the ground guys building fire lines. One of the most important ATGS duties is to make sure the drop line is clear of personnel and to make sure the fire isn't sneaking up on the ground guys.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
haha classic Army dude trying to come in and take the stack. You better be in a Mohawk or better with that bad-itude my friend
Lawman
Well-Known Member
haha classic Army dude trying to come in and take the stack. You better be in a Mohawk or better with that bad-itude my friend
The number of times I’ve had the JTAC job handed over to me because they didn’t have the amps to push the GFC plan to the east aircraft is astounding. The guys rolling with special people, they have the kit and training to do it themselves. The guys 2-4 deep to support a brigade, with equipment from the 90s, not so much.
CAS isn’t that hard, synchronization between it, fires, and maneuver is the difficult part. More to that the balance of all the communication parts is what will or won’t break off how much ass you can bring to the fight.
I’ve had as many as 7 radios to do all the things I needed to be doing. And 2 digital nets on top that. By all means put me in a faster/higher platform with more sensors. I can do more there.
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///AMG
Well-Known Member
oh for sure, the comms are mind scrambling. I've had a small taste of FAC(A) and it was literally just front seat detach from back seat, talk about the big picture on ICS, and otherwise run your program independently but also coordinated. And we couldn't even use more than 3 radios at time due to CVI limitations. Awaiting Mike's comment about when they did it single seat, with a compass, a grease pen, a hot pocket, and one secure UHF net
Lawman
Well-Known Member
oh for sure, the comms are mind scrambling. I've had a small taste of FAC(A) and it was literally just front seat detach from back seat, talk about the big picture on ICS, and otherwise run your program independently but also coordinated. And we couldn't even use more than 3 radios at time due to CVI limitations. Awaiting Mike's comment about when they did it single seat, with a compass, a grease pen, a hot pocket, and one secure UHF net
Honestly I feel like while it was less technical and more art, it was also waaaay less complex as far as what all could show up to play and need specific weaponeering and airspace deconfliction.
Like yeah it sucks not being able to just feed 10 digit grids into a weapon and release from distance knowing it pretty much will find its way to target. At the same time the geometry of delivery was all pretty much Plane start at IP… plane go to specific range/altitude… plane deliver either level or dive… plane egress preferably with next plane coming down the same track…. Now you got a plane doing one thing, pointed god knows what direction, dropping through a stack from any altitude short of space it seems, oh and the weapon may have its own idea how to get from point A to B so plan for that as well.
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Awaiting Mike's comment about when they did it single seat, with a compass, a grease pen, a hot pocket, and one secure UHF net
You asked…..
All I had was 6 colors of dry erase. a canopy to write on, a large tabbed pack of 1:50, 1:100, and a 1:250 maps; 4 radios all going at once…..either in the red with codes or semi-green if HAVE QUICK I/II felt like playing that day. Working both stacked air fires that are all showing up at the same time near bingo, and land arty deconfliction on two close targets, with the FAC next door and all his crap he has on his plate, oh and let’s toss in a notional downed aircrew (SEAD? What SEAD? They’re the ones on the ground shot down) so I can half ass manage an initial CSAR while still ensuring the CAS is continuing uninterrupted and not turning that off and screwing the ground forces, as has happened before in history. All while trying to not get zapped myself by any number of random AAA or SAM systems trying to target me up, seen or unseen.
Freaking kids and your GPS guided munitions, rover video feeds, and sensor points of interest. Below was my “blue force tracker” and enemy order of battle, only as accurate as it could be communicated, and hopefully seen with the Mk1 eyeball….
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