My ever changing plan

LoadMasterC141

LoadMasterC141

Well-Known Member
I rushed out and tried to get a huge loan for ATP before the price increase. Through the whole process, my loan got screwed up and I had to think more about other options. I WAS considering doing ATP's 10-Month Self-Paced ACPP program, but then I thought "what if I did as much as possible at a QUALITY FBO?

So here is my new plan---
Current Flight Time -37.5
250 Hrs needed to get to Commercial

LOCAL FBO - PPL, IFR, SE COMM
  • 213 Hrs (C-172, 10 in Complex 182RG) @$800 per 11 hrs -$15490
  • 75 Hrs Instruction @$30/HR -$ 2250
ATP - MEL COMM, CFI-I
  • 10 Hrs ATP MEL COMM 4-Day Program -$ 2795
  • 13.5ME/5 SE ATP 14-Day CFI-I Program -$ 6995
MISC Costs
  • Examiner Fees -$2700
  • Books, Supplies, etc -$1200
---------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL $31430

With the amount of debt I paid of in the last 10 months ,I can afford to do the VFR, IFR, and Comm in 6 months paying out of pocket. It will take around 40 hours a month of flying to accomplish. Add one more month to take the ME and CFI add-on's at ATP and I should hopefully be out in 7 months. I'll take a loan out for the ATP portion

I would next hope to get hired at ATP and instruct for a year to get some really decent ME times and meet mins at the upper echelon regional airlines.

Good Side-
  • Very Little Debt.
  • $31430 vs $60000 at ATP
  • About 279 TT/23.5 ME --All me getting to fly.
  • Keep my current house another year, which my realtor just came and said I should clear $15k profit if I wait that long.
  • Keep my current Job (70k/yr)
  • Lots' of time to just fly around the countryside as I please.
Bad Side-
  • Little to no ME or Complex time. More than 90% of my time will be in a 172.
  • I'll be done in Dec-Jan rather than Sep(had I done the 90-Day). Could mean more time to upgrade to CA once I make the regionals if I catch the tail end of Hire-A-Paloozza 2007.
  • IFR will be done in 172's that I will not be able to shoot GPS approaches with (How bad is this in the grand scheme of things? I know everything is GPs this and that nowadays)
  • "Life" can get in the way easier when not in an immersion program like ATP.
So what does everyone think? PLEASE let me know and feel free to help critique my cost evaluation AND add to the good and bad sides.....

Progress so far-----
I did 2.4 today; first time flying since I stopped last July to pay all my debt off! Solo at 1.4! My instructor really made me feel comfortable and it was obvious in my flying. The Military guy last year was great, but he had a tendency to make me nervous the whole flight hounding every thing I did. This guy was really calm and just made some comments on basic things, ("Your flaring a bit high, nose down AND....flare there...good." "tighten your pattern up next time around").

I am flying alone all week after work to practice, out of town on business this weekend, and meeting up with my instructor to go through maneuvers next week, then on to dual X-C's that weekend!
 
It sounds like an awesome plan Jeremy!!

Regarding the GPS thing... it's not that big of deal really. If you can fly a Non-Precision approach then a GPS approach is a piece of cake. The learning isn't really in the approach itself... it's learning the actual GPS unit for the aircraft you are flying.

The little ME and complex time just simply puts you in the same boat as just about every other FBO trained person out there... and that's not a bad thing. The challenge is where you will get your ME time from. Many folks instruct at an FBO without ME aircraft and thus end up buying 100hrs to timebuild at ARI or someplace equivelant... or finding an FBO that has ME aircraft that you will actually get to fly/instruct in.

However... using ATP for the ME rating and the CFI's may be an even better route since if all goes well... then you may get on with them to instruct too... thus making ME time a breeze. So... it looks like you've planned everything out pretty well!

Just stay on top of your instructors and make sure they are making you a priority! :)

Oh yeah... You better be stopping off up here and picking me up for a few of those XC's!! ;)

Bob
 
I am all for avoiding the 'academies' and just finding inexpensive rental rates and a good instructor elsewhere. The rental rate you quoted at $800 per 11 hours (or $73/hr) is good, especially if the 10 hours of 182RG time were factored in there. $30/hr for instruction is good too. By paying these rates for your training you can be just like me and pick on new JC members when they say they are paying $200/hr with dual for a new G1000 skyhawk.

Addressing your concerns, not being able to do GPS approaches when you are working on your IFR ticket is no big deal at all. It is worth the rates you are paying to rent some extra time after and do nothing but GPS approaches for 2 hours (or less) and you will be all caught up.

As for the multi-time concern, again, it's worth the money you are saving to find a multi and rent it. I know a place that will give you commercial instruction in a multi for $135+30 /hr. I wish I would have done my commercial in a multi, I'd have more multi time than I do now (the multi counts as a complex because it has retract and CS props).

As for complex time....it's worthless IMO. When I was at 500 hrs I remember falling over myself to get time in the arrow, sacrificing 5 hours in a C-150 for 1.5 hours in an Arrow. Now, looking back, I realize how little that arrow time matters.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
I rushed out and tried to get a huge loan for ATP before the price increase. Through the whole process, my loan got screwed up and I had to think more about other options. I WAS considering doing ATP's 10-Month Self-Paced ACPP program, but then I thought "what if I did as much as possible at a QUALITY FBO?

So here is my new plan---
Current Flight Time -37.5
250 Hrs needed to get to Commercial

LOCAL FBO - PPL, IFR, SE COMM
  • 213 Hrs (C-172, 10 in Complex 182RG) @$800 per 11 hrs -$15490
  • 75 Hrs Instruction @$30/HR -$ 2250
ATP - MEL COMM, CFI-I
  • 10 Hrs ATP MEL COMM 4-Day Program -$ 2795
  • 13.5ME/5 SE ATP 14-Day CFI-I Program -$ 6995
MISC Costs
  • Examiner Fees -$2700
  • Books, Supplies, etc -$1200
---------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL $31430

With the amount of debt I paid of in the last 10 months ,I can afford to do the VFR, IFR, and Comm in 6 months paying out of pocket. It will take around 40 hours a month of flying to accomplish. Add one more month to take the ME and CFI add-on's at ATP and I should hopefully be out in 7 months. I'll take a loan out for the ATP portion

I would next hope to get hired at ATP and instruct for a year to get some really decent ME times and meet mins at the upper echelon regional airlines.

Good Side-
  • Very Little Debt.
  • $31430 vs $60000 at ATP
  • About 279 TT/23.5 ME --All me getting to fly.
  • Keep my current house another year, which my realtor just came and said I should clear $15k profit if I wait that long.
  • Keep my current Job (70k/yr)
  • Lots' of time to just fly around the countryside as I please.
Bad Side-
  • Little to no ME or Complex time. More than 90% of my time will be in a 172.
  • I'll be done in Dec-Jan rather than Sep(had I done the 90-Day). Could mean more time to upgrade to CA once I make the regionals if I catch the tail end of Hire-A-Paloozza 2007.
  • IFR will be done in 172's that I will not be able to shoot GPS approaches with (How bad is this in the grand scheme of things? I know everything is GPs this and that nowadays)
  • "Life" can get in the way easier when not in an immersion program like ATP.
So what does everyone think? PLEASE let me know and feel free to help critique my cost evaluation AND add to the good and bad sides.....

Progress so far-----
I did 2.4 today; first time flying since I stopped last July to pay all my debt off! Solo at 1.4! My instructor really made me feel comfortable and it was obvious in my flying. The Military guy last year was great, but he had a tendency to make me nervous the whole flight hounding every thing I did. This guy was really calm and just made some comments on basic things, ("Your flaring a bit high, nose down AND....flare there...good." "tighten your pattern up next time around").

I am flying alone all week after work to practice, out of town on business this weekend, and meeting up with my instructor to go through maneuvers next week, then on to dual X-C's that weekend!
Click to expand...

Hi Jeremy-

I too have been debating for awhile about what I am going to do, FBO vs. bigger school. I am currently working, and I make about $72K/year. I have saved about $48K in personal accounts over the years (non-retirement accounts). I am planning on staying at my current job through the end of June, at which time I will hopefully have about $5K more saved. At that time, I plan to focus on flying full time.

I have a good bit of money saved up, but I still wonder if I should save some of it and continue my training at my FBO (Flights Inc. in Denver), or head to Skymates or ATP. I currently have about 15 hours and should be soloing within my next couple flights. If I did remain at the local FBO, I would hopefully fly at least 5-6 times/week. However, if I get my Inst./Comm./Multi at the FBO, I will still be missing the multi time that is received at the larger schools. I assume I would probably have to go buy a block of multi flying at one of the bigger schools.

So, just to let you know, I am right there with ya when it comes to these decisions, and it is a pain in the arse! I have a house also that I have put on the market and it is not moving at all thanks to the less than stellar market. I am going to see how much I can rent it out for. Ugh.

Hang in there and hopefully we'll both meet that goal someday!

Matt
 
Hi Matt,
Well you are in a better spot than I with all that money saved. I have paid off all my debt (In the $40k region) in the last year, but no moolah in savings really. I would have to say that if it was me holding ATP’s tuition in my hands, I would be at the ACPP right now (Hurry before the price increase!). It is just more of a sure thing than an FBO and life cannot get in the way when you are immersed in a program like that. Plus, you have more of a guarantee than I do to get in as an instructor

Regarding your FBO plan, you can still get hired on at ATP as an instructor if you do not do the ACPP, but things can change. You have more of a chance if you do their CFI program (Which I am planning on).
2 years ago, when Cap’n Bob was just a youngster, they only took ACP guys. So then you/I would be buying multi time, yes.

Thanks for taking the time to read my plan and keep me updated on yours! Jeremy
 
You two make it sound as if ATP was the only place in the country where you could put a MEI certificate to use! There are plenty of flight schools where you could instruct and get alot of multi quick...and they're desperate for instructors too. Only reason i never got to use my MEI is because I couldn't leave Podunk, VT.
 
No sir I am not saying that. But from what I can see, ATP has a steady stream of students and the instruction given is almost exclusively ME. Lets’ face it, most students coming to FBO’s for instruction are not coming for ME. Thus, even those with ME planes have instructors vying for that time. From the few schools I looked at here and in NY, the senior instructors get all that time. Even a school like Skymates is not giving its' instructors as much ME time as ATP. Thus, it just seems to me that instructing for an almost-all ME school, like ATP, is a great benefit
 
I love the route you are choosing - do it on the cheap, I say, as long as you have a quality instructor.

As for the multi: Have you thought about getting your ratings, instructing to about 1200 TT, then getting your multi add-on at another FBO on the cheap? Then after that fly freight for a while, gain valuable experience, then make your move to wherever you want to go after that?
 
I have given it thought yes. And I don’t want to discount the invaluable experience one would attain as a freight dog, but I am not sure I can afford it. If I can get on with an airline that is decent (XJET, SKYW, REP, etc) and still have decent upgrade times (2-3yrs), I figure my total time to get back, or close, to my current salary will only be 3-4 years. Going the other route could take quite a bit of time, though I agree would probably hone my pilot skills more. Instructors at local FBO’s around here are taking years to get to 1000 hours. I cannot survive in my current job much longer, and am too old to wait years. This is not to say that is where I will ultimately end up. Ideally, I would like to be a corporate pilot someday.
 
Have you thought about building your commercial experience on a ME acft? You know get your PP ME find someone to share ME time.

Good luck man! BTW in the future you will even be more glad of your smart decision 60k at 12% apr when you are making 20k/year is no picnic
 
TheAlchemist said:
BTW in the future you will even be more glad of your smart decision 60k at 12% apr when you are making 20k/year is no picnic
Click to expand...
Actually... it's almost exactly like a picnic... cause you'll be eating lot's of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches!! ;)

Using the 20k/year argument got old several years ago. You are absolutely right that paying off high interest debt can be a challenge... no argument there. But to say that someone is going into that much debt for a 20k/year job is nothing more than a scare tactic.

Within the next 3 years... I could be pulling in almost $100,000/yr. if I decide to move to a major. That's not a bad ROI over those years... Here's how I can see it panning out.

Year 1: $25000
Year 2: $38000
Year 3: $60000 (Upgrade)
Year 4: $60000+
Year 5: $44000 (Major 1st year, Delta)
Year 6: $70000 - $94000 (MD-88FO - 777FO @ 85 hours not including per-diem)

Year 7+... it keeps going... up.

Captain upgrade at a major within 5+ years: $120000-$170000+ depending on airline, aircraft, etc.

The extra year to two years at the top of the payscale that one get's by going a faster route is worth the interest on the debt alone.

Yes... it's a sacrifice... for now. And yes... folks will be scrimping by. But... if they manage their finances accordingly... then it's not a problem at all... and there won't be that many PB&J meals. ;)

Anyway... after all is said and done... to be fair and honest... my arguement could be shot to he|| if the industry cracks up again.

However... that's the gamble. Whether we go the "quick" interest bearing route... or the longer "personal time" sacrificing route... we all stand to lose... or win.

Bob
 
Captain_Bob said:
Actually... it's almost exactly like a picnic... cause you'll be eating lot's of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches!! ;)

Bob
Click to expand...

Agreed!

I will be more specific when I say 20k/year...22.5k per year for the first year...my bad

BTW the pic in your avatar is the cutest thing!
 
Sounds like a great plan. If you decide not to go to ATP for your ME check out this website www.traverseair.com this company is very reasonable on their ME ratings and I think you would be very happy. Good Luck
 
Great points Bob. I have heard that "20k/yr" argument falsely advertised alot.

Personally, I have chosen the FBO route for the majority of my training due to 3 factors:
1) I just spent a year digging myself out of debt. Even at a level where my wife and I are pulling in six figures combined, we have lived slightly above the lifestyle of that 20k/yr to pay off debt. It is doable, but not fun. Because of the extra taxation to our relationship I forsee in my first year as a regional pilot (Getting used to being away from home alot, especially during IOE, unknown work schedules during reserve time, etc) I decided it would be beneficial to tack on any stress from added debt. Whether a $50k loan is manageable or not, it is still a FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLAR LOAN!

2) I was not financially ready, in my plan, to jump to ATP until late summer. With the price increase, that only moved it out more. Doing the FBO route NOW should not really make that big of a difference in the time it will take me to get to the regional mins I need.

3) I found a really good FBO that is the expansion phase. The people and flying community backing this FBO are solid. After the dismal experience with an FBO last year, I leaned even more towards ATP because I KNEW it would at least be standardized training.

If any of these reasons were not there, I would have gone to ATP regardless. Most of all, it was the money for me though.

I am in no way saying the FBO route is better than ATP. I am not even saying it is better for me at this point, but I picked the route and will stick with it. My biggest fear, and the most likely situation, is that it is going to take longer than 6 months. Due to weather and work travel, I have already fallen 20 hours behind my goal of 40 hours a month.

I still believe from my personal research and visit to ATP that it is an outstanding immersion training environment that has many advantages over a local FBO, even in terms of training...even in comparison to a great FBO like the one I am training at.

Alchemist,
I have not considered getting a PPL ME. To me, it seems quite expensive when I can get the neccesary ME time and get paid a little to do it. Though, it is a viable option if the other were not available.
 
Well it looks like my ever changing plan is ever changing again.

ATP closed their 14 day CFI program down today. It is now only open to 90 day graduates. Though they say they still hire outside CFI's, it is at a pretty reduced pay rate from the new 90 day grad instructor pay.

I have no idea what I am going to do yet. I'll take suggestions if ya have em. Don I already know yours.
 
Dude, that really sucks. Always a change to the change, huh? I finally decided to hang on for the last 5 years to retire...I couldn't hack dumping the pension to get in this crazy game where the rules are always changing! At least w/ the cheddar Uncle Sugar will pay me, I'll be able to afford the lumps. Where are you in your training now?
 
Right now I am at 112 hours, PPL, Studying for IFR written, starting IFR instruction when I get home from this business trip this weekend.

Here is where I am with my plan now.

I got a loan approved from Wachovia for $58495 at 10.25%. The problem is it keeps going through my mind: FIFTY EIGHT THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND NINETY FIVE DOLLARS!!!!! Ouch. I want to go to ATP, but the cost!!

All weekend, vacationing with my cousin in SAT and CRP, all I could do was think about what I was going to do. I kept quiet but my cousin finally cornered me and asked what was on my mind.

I want out of my job badly, but is it badly enough to owe that kind of money? I know it is just a big car payment, but it is a 15 year big car payment and though on paper it says Sandra and I could make it through financially, it is JUST barely.

So I came out with three options:
1) Take the loan. Screw it. Just jump and chances are you will land on your feet. You get to quit your job soon.

2) Stay with the current plan, only plan to go to Skymates for the Multi and CFI-I ratings, then instruct for them. ATP out the window completely. Have to stay at current job until January minimum. Still have to take out a loan for around 15-20k to cover training.

3) Join my Cousins' C-5 Guard unit. They need loads badly because their old plane, the 130, only had one. Now they need 3-4 per plane. All I would need is a 2.5 Month C-5 Standardization class in SAT. I have the rest from before. This would give me the ability to quickly leave my job. I would have a nice retirement at age 60, for 12 more years of service. I would have some extra dough for to compensate for 1st-2nd year regional pay. I would have access to base aero clubs (210HP T-41 goes for $68/hr). I would also still be able to continue my current flight training during load school as it is only weekdays.

Flying Guard Squadrons arent like others. You basically tell them when you want to fly and they find you a trip. The big drawback is that I have heard regionals don't really like that you sometimes are obligated, or otherwise choose, guard duty when you are supposed to be flying for them. I would not do that, but I have heard that.

I am 99% sure option one is out. As bad as I want to go to ATP and just get going as fast as I can, that loan makes my stomach quiver. I can't think doing everything at Skymates would be that bad anyway though. No RJ class, Citation Ride, or Hiring Partnerships, but I think I could still do ok.
 
I've posted this quite a bit on other strings, but save a boat load of money, go the FBO route, get your CFI, teach for a bit, get your CFII, teach some more, then go for your ME and MEI and teach some more, but completely understand what you are doing and have some real world flying experience to take with you in your career. Who knows, you may just like it (teaching).

Sounds like you are a bit older, as am I and that this is your second career in life. I work at an FBO, where we are all older and have worked in other careers. None of us are chomping at the bit to jump to an airline with a few hours, yet all of us pride ourselves in loving aviation and wanting to be the best at what we do (which is teach people to fly, not put them in a jet with a few hours). We want to master our craft.

Wouldn't it be great to learn from people who have a passion to teach and not just learn from someone "doing time" as an instructor? Think about that... Then go find that school and that instructor (no matter where it is).

All of us have dreams and future goals in aviation, we just come from an old school philosophy of knowing and mastering all possible at various levels and moving on from there (for one does not understand what they truly do not know, until one tries teaching said subjects).

Good luck in whatever you do, but no matter what, if you do what you love, relax and the money will follow..... If not, at least you are doing what you love.... Oh yeah and don't get a large loan, you will regret it.....
 
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