Muskeeter down near RST 09MAR

azmedic

Well-Known Member
Lost an engine while in the pattern it seems,did not make it back to the aerodrome,however. Minor injuries to the sole occupant. However,the bigger takeaway is the back and forth between tower and ARFF. ARFF wouldn’t respond off field without obtaining authorization due to Part 139 requirements and a few 121 inbounds. It seems they now have changed that policy. @MikeD what’s your thoughts on this? UPDATE: Rochester International Airport changes off-site emergency protocol after Sunday’s plane crash


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That is a big deal, as ARFF equipment and trained firefighters are required by 14 CFR 139 for airports with scheduled and unscheduled pax carrying operations, of differing pax load sizes. ARFF is not a requirement at any other airports, though some airports have some capability. Most of these 139 airports, other than larger city airports, often have just enough ARFF trucks to meet their required FAA Index, and maybe a spare or maybe not. If one of their trucks either goes out of service, or responds to a dedicated call on field, a dedicated call off field, or a mutual aid call off field, air carrier operations must be reduced or curtailed to what Index is still available at the airport.

How individual airports with ARFF service employ their fire units by policy, can widely vary. Some airports reserve ARFF units for strictly on-airfield responses including areas immediately outside the perimeter of the field. Outside of the immediate airport grounds area, it is considered the responsibility of whichever off airport fire department’s response area that falls within. The off airport FD might not have any specific ARFF vehicles or trained personnel, but that’s the working agreement for that particular airport and surrounding area.

Getting back to something I mentioned above, how only 14 CFR 139 airports are required to have ARFF, is something many pilots aren’t aware of. Some of the busiest GA airports out there, have no actual ARFF trucks or trained personnel at the airport, as there’s no requirement to. Other GA airports may have an ARFF truck and personnel, but only due to the city associated with it having the money to do so. Other airports may happen to have a nearby regular fire station or possibly even one on-field, but with no specific ARFF vehicles/capabilities, or trained personnel. Generally, if there isn’t a requirement to have to have ARFF, many small municipalities or airport management entities won’t bother to have it, as it is a large expense both equipment and training wise, for something that would rarely be used and with what they consider the local regular FD personnel able to do a “good enough” job with. Even civil airports that have an ARFF truck or two, it might only be manned with one driver/operator, with follow-on responding units (ARFF or non-ARFF trained) expected to augment the one-man ARFF vehicle, all for funding issues. Bottom line is, ARFF availability, capabilities (beyond the minimum required), manning, and ops policies, all can vary widely at both 139 airports that have them, and non-139 airports that may possibly have them available.

The exception are military bases, which do not come under FAA jurisdiction and thus have no Index. These airfields are shown by the FAA to have the lowest possible Index, even though their capabilities far exceed what the FAA shows. Example is KNYL/Yuma, a joint civilian/USMC field. It’s listed as an Index A airport, the lowest ARFF index of the FAA ratings (E being the highest), even though the USMC provides all ARFF for the field and has about 10 trucks and far exceeds Index E capability with equipment and personnel. Same for KABQ, where the USAF provides the ARFF, Classed as Index C by the FAA, but also exceeds E capabilities at the military fire station. Similarly, KFFZ/Falcon Field, lists no ARFF capability at the field, even though City of Mesa fire station 208 on the field, has an ARFF truck and associated trained firefighters. But because that field has no scheduled/unscheduled pax air carrier service that falls under 14 CFR 139, they aren’t required to list any ARFF Index capability, nor does anything change ops-wise at the airport if Foam 208 goes out of service for any reason. I believe their actual formal ARFF capability is Index C with F208 and with Boeing Helicopter facility’s ARFF truck on the north side of the field at the attached heliport, but it’s not a rated airport.

There are airports like KCGZ/Casa Grande. The busiest uncontrolled GA training airport in the US I would suspect, but with no ARFF due to no requirement for it, no pax airline service, They happen to have a small regular fire station located near the airport perimeter due to growth of the town north towards the airport, but it has no ARFF trucks or specific trained personnel. The below accident happened about 12 years ago there with a King Air E90 that stalled on a go-around during pattern training. The fire started small, but spread quickly. With no ARFF based on field, it was a good number of minutes before the first arriving structural firefighting unit arrived, with the wreckage as seen in the below pic by that time.

Hope this gives more insight to how all of this works.

Photo credit: unknown

1741818507006.jpeg
 
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That is a big deal, as ARFF equipment and trained firefighters are required by 14 CFR 139 for airports with scheduled and unscheduled pax carrying operations, of differing pax load sizes. ARFF is not a requirement at any other airports, though some airports have some capability. Most of these 139 airports, other than larger city airports, often have just enough ARFF trucks to meet their required FAA Index, and maybe a spare or maybe not. If one of their trucks either goes out of service, or responds to a dedicated call on field, a dedicated call off field, or a mutual aid call off field, air carrier operations must be reduced or curtailed to what Index is still available at the airport.

How individual airports with ARFF service employ their fire units by policy, can widely vary. Some airports reserve ARFF units for strictly on-airfield responses including areas immediately outside the perimeter of the field. Outside of the immediate airport grounds area, it is considered the responsibility of whichever off airport fire department’s response area that falls within. The off airport FD might not have any specific ARFF vehicles or trained personnel, but that’s the working agreement for that particular airport and surrounding area.

Getting back to something I mentioned above, how only 14 CFR 139 airports are required to have ARFF, is something many pilots aren’t aware of. Some of the busiest GA airports out there, have no actual ARFF trucks or trained personnel at the airport, as there’s no requirement to. Other GA airports may have an ARFF truck and personnel, but only due to the city associated with it having the money to do so. Other airports may happen to have a nearby regular fire station or possibly even one on-field, but with no specific ARFF vehicles/capabilities, or trained personnel. Generally, if there isn’t a requirement to have to have ARFF, many small municipalities or airport management entities won’t bother to have it, as it is a large expense both equipment and training wise, for something that would rarely be used and with what they consider the local regular FD personnel able to do a “good enough” job with. Even civil airports that have an ARFF truck or two, it might only be manned with one driver/operator, with follow-on responding units (ARFF or non-ARFF trained) expected to augment the one-man ARFF vehicle, all for funding issues. Bottom line is, ARFF availability, capabilities (beyond the minimum required), manning, and ops policies, all can vary widely at both 139 airports that have them, and non-139 airports that may possibly have them available.

The exception are military bases, which do not come under FAA jurisdiction and thus have no Index. These airfields are shown by the FAA to have the lowest possible Index, even though their capabilities far exceed what the FAA shows. Example is KNYL/Yuma, a joint civilian/USMC field. It’s listed as an Index A airport, the lowest ARFF index of the FAA ratings (E being the highest), even though the USMC provides all ARFF for the field and has about 10 trucks and far exceeds Index E capability with equipment and personnel. Same for KABQ, where the USAF provides the ARFF, Classed as Index C by the FAA, but also exceeds E capabilities at the military fire station. Similarly, KFFZ/Falcon Field, lists no ARFF capability at the field, even though City of Mesa fire station 208 on the field, has an ARFF truck and associated trained firefighters. But because that field has no scheduled/unscheduled pax air carrier service that falls under 14 CFR 139, they aren’t required to list any ARFF Index capability, nor does anything change ops-wise at the airport if Foam 208 goes out of service for any reason. I believe their actual formal ARFF capability is Index B with F208, but it’s not a rated airport.

There are airports like KCGZ/Casa Grande. The busiest uncontrolled GA training airport in the US I would suspect, but with no ARFF due to no requirement for it, no pax airline service, They happen to have a small regular fire station located near the airport perimeter due to growth of the town north towards the airport, but it has no ARFF trucks or specific trained personnel. The below accident happened about 12 years ago there with a King Air E90 that stalled on a go-around during pattern training. The fire started small, but spread quickly. With no ARFF based on field, it was a good number of minutes before the first arriving structural firefighting unit arrived, with the wreckage as seen in the below pic by that time.

Hope this gives more insight to how all of this works.

Photo credit: unknown

View attachment 82568

Interesting point you bring up,KDVT was at one point the busiest controlled GA airport in the US,they do not have ARFF on the field. The closest fire station is Phoenix Station 36 which is about a block away,I know they have a tanker but not sure on a foam truck.


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Interesting point you bring up,KDVT was at one point the busiest controlled GA airport in the US,they do not have ARFF on the field. The closest fire station is Phoenix Station 36 which is about a block away,I know they have a tanker but not sure on a foam truck.


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An example of mere compliance surely being necessary but woefully insufficient for safety.

(Everyone: THERE HE GOES AGAIN…)
 
Interesting point you bring up,KDVT was at one point the busiest controlled GA airport in the US,they do not have ARFF on the field. The closest fire station is Phoenix Station 36 which is about a block away,I know they have a tanker but not sure on a foam truck.


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Nope, no ARFF truck at 36. Interestingly, there used to be Rescue truck based there on field until the mid-1980s, Rescue 19, which was sent there from KPHX (19) when they got a new rescue truck. GYR had a small ARFF truck too at that same time, but got rid of it about the same time DVT did theirs. No replacements for either of them, and none required.
 
An example of mere compliance surely being necessary but woefully insufficient for safety.

(Everyone: THERE HE GOES AGAIN…)

It’s one of those things that if it was made a requirement for every airport to have, there would be extremely lesser GA airports in existence than there are currently.
 
My thought was ATC closes the field, thus suspends the 121 operation and frees ARFF for off airport. I was sure that it isn't that simple and now I've had a "the more you know moment". thanks @MikeD

Fun story, since switching from the 130 to the 17 in 2024 the most pain in the ass thing I've done is leaving at 2 am on Christmas day for a home base - KADW - TISX - home base, round robin to drop off a fire truck at TISX to upgrade the fields ARFF so AF1 could land for Biden's carib xmas vacation. That was my first clue that I'd hate life as a moose driver.
 
My thought was ATC closes the field, thus suspends the 121 operation and frees ARFF for off airport. I was sure that it isn't that simple and now I've had a "the more you know moment". thanks @MikeD

Fun story, since switching from the 130 to the 17 in 2024 the most pain in the ass thing I've done is leaving at 2 am on Christmas day for a home base - KADW - TISX - home base, round robin to drop off a fire truck at TISX to upgrade the fields ARFF so AF1 could land for Biden's carib xmas vacation. That was my first clue that I'd hate life as a moose driver.

That’s the cost, you’d have to delay/divert the 121 flight ops in the case of where there are not additional ARFF vehicles or personnel. I imagine that this is what would have happened, had the off-airport FD arrived at the accident aircraft, and notifed that it required specialized extrication or some other factor that ARFF would have to perform, then ARFF could be special called to the scene and the 121 flight ops delayed.

Most of the small ARFF trucks are compatible for fitting into a C-130, so they can be delivered to an austere or forward base to be utilized, while most medium ARFF trucks are C-141/C-17 compatible for delivery to other airports. Only the giant P-15 ARFF truck required the C-5 for air transport.
 
Several years ago, there was an inbound that had a bad brake fire, and tied up ARFF for some time. No 121 ops were permitted because the residual ARFF was essentially zero at that point.
 
Several years ago, there was an inbound that had a bad brake fire, and tied up ARFF for some time. No 121 ops were permitted because the residual ARFF was essentially zero at that point.

That’s what happens. And too, ARFF generally trains for one incident at a time occurring. They don’t generally train as split operations covering two separate unrelated major accidents on an airfield at the same time. Although that exact situation has happened in the past, and it made the work interesting.
 
Non-pilot here. This is very interesting. For 121 ops, do the ARFF trucks have to be manned anytime there's a commercial flight? For small commercial airports that have maybe a couple of flights a day, that must be incredibly expensive to purchase and maintain such equipment. Who foots the bill? What do the firefighters do all do when there's just a flights?

Is ARFF coverage a factor in choosing diversion airports? In an emergency, can a part 121 op land at a non-ARFF field if need be?
 
Non-pilot here. This is very interesting. For 121 ops, do the ARFF trucks have to be manned anytime there's a commercial flight? For small commercial airports that have maybe a couple of flights a day, that must be incredibly expensive to purchase and maintain such equipment. Who foots the bill? What do the firefighters do all do when there's just a flights?

Is ARFF coverage a factor in choosing diversion airports? In an emergency, can a part 121 op land at a non-ARFF field if need be?

I'm only speaking for the ARFF question for diversions and the such. ARFF requirements are based on scheduled service so at my airline (I'm assuming others too), we can list, divert to and depart from an alternate airport that doesn't meet the ARFF requirements for our aircraft. Our policy for our scheduled flights for ARFF at departure/destination airports is pretty straight-forward:
"If ARFF coverage does not exist or has been temporarily removed from an airport, operations are suspended."

If we conduct charter operations, our charter coordinator will ensure that there's adequate ARFF coverage at the airports we're going to. This may mean the airport will call in an additional truck from a fire station nearby to provide the coverage needed and temporarily upgrade the ARFF Index for that airport. If the flight gets delayed, that has to be relayed to ensure we will have ARFF coverage during our time on the ground. I imagine this expense gets passed on to the charter customer.
 
Non-pilot here. This is very interesting. For 121 ops, do the ARFF trucks have to be manned anytime there's a commercial flight? For small commercial airports that have maybe a couple of flights a day, that must be incredibly expensive to purchase and maintain such equipment. Who foots the bill? What do the firefighters do all do when there's just a flights?

Is ARFF coverage a factor in choosing diversion airports? In an emergency, can a part 121 op land at a non-ARFF field if need be?

Has to be manned for the time 121 ops are occurring. At other times, and many small airports, the ARFF truck(s) may very well be unmanned, with the firefighters performing other duties on the airport.

For routine diverts in terms of needing to file or have a divert airfield, it’s not a required factor. For an actual airborne emergency and having to proceed to a nearest suitable airport, what that airport’s fire rescue capabilities are could indeed become a factor in the crew decision.
 
Non-pilot here. This is very interesting. For 121 ops, do the ARFF trucks have to be manned anytime there's a commercial flight? For small commercial airports that have maybe a couple of flights a day, that must be incredibly expensive to purchase and maintain such equipment. Who foots the bill? What do the firefighters do all do when there's just a flights?

Is ARFF coverage a factor in choosing diversion airports? In an emergency, can a part 121 op land at a non-ARFF field if need be?

The airport is responsible for providing ARFF services when required by Part 139. This is a major cost consideration when general aviation airports look to the possibility of gaining Part 139 certification to accept Part 121 ops.
 
I remember years ago, dispatching at a regional airline that no longer exists, we had a flight going to the Bahamas. The flight had to be delayed hours (if not cancelled altogether) because the one firetruck on the island had broken down and they were trying to fix it. The guys down there were really nice and would keep us updated about every hour.
 
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