I certainly don't intent to demean the profession as I am a cfi/meii and I am aware of what else goes into instructing but the basic premise I'm getting at is as a flight instructor my hands, although a quarter inch from the controls at any given time, arent necessarily on the controls. If you do safety pilot time properly your eyes should be on everything: outside, inside, instruments, navigation, charts, radios. If you do all the stuff that you should be doing then safety pilot time can be very beneficial. It also lets you observe the other individual flying and see what they do that works and what they do that doesn't work. A lot of cfi's say they learned more after they started teaching then they did going through training because of what i mentioned above and switching with someone as a safety pilot can be beneficial for the same reasons. That 'correalation' level has what has really hit me as a cfi watching my students do things.
Multi-engine training and time building
- Thread starter metroman3
- Start date
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
By the true sense of the regulation a safety pilot has no other duties than looking out the window. No grabbing controls, no teaching, no explaining, no helping. Thats why I believe SP time is not PIC time and should be required to be logged as SP time. This way employers can find out if the logbook was artificially inflated by two people logging PIC when there was truly no reason for it. The problem is that people love to be safety pilot, acting as a required crew member even though their only job is to help to avoid hitting things. I wonder how the FAA thinks about a SP sitting there playing the radios or helping and explaining anything. I would not blame them for construing fraudulent instruction to be taking place if the SP is in fact not qualified to act as an Instructor.
Where does it say the only thing a safety pilot has to do is look outside the window? It says that "the safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircrafft, or a competent observer in the aircraft in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot".
So yes looking outside is very important but not their sole responsibility. What good is it if your acting pic flying the airplane is nose up 25 degrees 1 knot over Vs? Vmc? You as a safety pilot will just sit there and keep looking out the window? They need to be adequately rated in the aircraft for a reason. And don't forget about the all important CRM. You are supposed to use every available resource at your disposal. So why wouldn't a safety pilot be able/allowed to operate the radios, gps, charts...? Anything other then allowing that is unsafe especially since the pilot flying is 'under the hood' and has their attention focused on other things.
I understand a lot of people use safety pilot time by going up with their buddy just to cut the cost in half and they goof off and no one uses a hood. but done correctly it could be valuable. I have learned a lot from flying with safety pilots.
So yes looking outside is very important but not their sole responsibility. What good is it if your acting pic flying the airplane is nose up 25 degrees 1 knot over Vs? Vmc? You as a safety pilot will just sit there and keep looking out the window? They need to be adequately rated in the aircraft for a reason. And don't forget about the all important CRM. You are supposed to use every available resource at your disposal. So why wouldn't a safety pilot be able/allowed to operate the radios, gps, charts...? Anything other then allowing that is unsafe especially since the pilot flying is 'under the hood' and has their attention focused on other things.
I understand a lot of people use safety pilot time by going up with their buddy just to cut the cost in half and they goof off and no one uses a hood. but done correctly it could be valuable. I have learned a lot from flying with safety pilots.
Beech driver
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not, just make sure you discuss each person's actions before you get in the airplane.
Personally, I do let them remind me of critical information. However, if I am under the hood I want more responsibility than just flying. I want to be pushing the buttons on the radios, GPS, etc. Granted, I do enough single pilot flying that I need to stay sharp on those skills.
In regard to CRM, yes use anything and everything at your disposal. If that means the safety pilot using the radios and GPS, go for it. If the pilot under the hood does more single pilot flying and/or wants the wants the practice, let them do everything.
Personally, when I am flying as PIC I tell my safety pilots to let me do everything. GPS, radios, etc. I am there for the practice. They do, however, need to make sure I copy all clearances/readbacks correctly. If they see something I missed, tell me. It is what we discuss before we get in the airplane.
Last time I had a safety pilot she did the bare bones basic stuff required of her. She looked out the window. Had approach not contacted me she would have let me bust a heading and go where I shouldn't have. I missed the heading, approach controller missed me not reading it back, my safety pilot not telling me what was actually said. Nearly lead to bad things.
If one is to do Safety Pilot stuff, make sure the responsibilities are clear before the flight.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
ATP advertised that I'd get 75 hours of cross country time- when half of that turned out to be safety pilot time I felt duped. So you should know that it is a hot-button issue for me (as indicated by my post). But to put that aside and actually answer your question (what an idea!), I think it would make sense to spend the money on the MEI if it will result in you getting at least 50 hours of multi so that you meet some airline's minimum.
If everyone else is going to be doing the multi instruction and you'll only end up with a multi-engine time GRAND TOTAL of something FAR less than 50 (like 20) then it may not make financial sense.
What is your total multi time?
Here's a scenario: If you have 20 hours of multi... and you do your MEI and then many of those senor MEIs move on to the airlines in a year (hopefully not more!) and then you have the opportunity to do multi training... you only need three students to get you to the 50 hour minimum of many regionals. So it would make sense. Even if it only got you to 42 hours then youd only have to go pay for 8 hours of time to meet mins.
So if it is likely that you'd get at least two multi students the MEI would make financial sense.
That's much more clear and better than my first response... since it actually answers your question!
Exactly. Besides, the more you know and learn as a pilot the better the pilot you are going to be. As with the case with Sully and the flight that 'landed' in the hudson. He was a glider pilot and if I remember correctly, sea-plane rated as well. Now he easily could have said he doesn't need those ratings and one could argue that those ratings made no impact on that day last month, but even if it didn't have an impact, he was/is a better pilot for it. So getting training on multi-engines and being able to teach that same training will make you a better pilot.
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
If your goal is only to check off boxes and not do anymore than absolutely needed then great, wait for you MEI until you have a student, but it is hard to get the student if other MEI's step ahead of you . Overall I think this is definately the wrong attitude. All of us instructors will likely be instructing for quite a while. Even though I wouldn't turn down a shiny jet at this time, I still think it is a blessing in disguise. We get more time to learn the art of flying and see possible mistakes and resolutions through our students eyes. The more you can do this the better. This includes getting the ratings you will need down the road now and taking any flight opportunity that comes your way. So get a good instructing job and if 2000 hours is when you move on then the better and safer you'll be and so be it.
On the subject of safety pilot time, I learned just as much in my safety pilot time as I did in my Flying pilot time. Especially about CRM. Really flying the plane is the easy part. I too went to ATP and understood the safety pilot thing before I went. To pay that much for flight training and not take the time to find out what the flight time consisted of is a failure on the students part. The information is widely available The time spent with a peer pilot next to you allows you to grow and use each other instead of relying on a instructor.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
I was approaching the question from the position of being a CFI with $70,000 of debt and a monthly payment I can't make. I don't know if the OP is in the same position, but most of us are.
Because he indicated that the MEI training is dominated by the existing MEIs and he didn't know if he'd get to do any I was saying that it makes sense to go into debt if the end result will be 50 hours of total multi time. If it is only gonna take him to 30 hours of multi time that wont meet anyone's min, and considering the state of the airlines, he might want to wait until some of those MEIs are closer to moving on before he signs up for more debt.
Nobody in their right mind would tell someone not to become a better pilot. But I am here living the fabulous life of the flight instructor drowning in debt for real- so I answered from that perspective.
I can't think of any reason why a new private pilot should be expected to have even HEARD OF safety pilot time. I hadn't. It is misleading advertising. You can't search to find out if ATP is talking about safety pilot time when it is a term and concept that you never knew existed in the first place. If you love ATP that's great. They get the job done quickly and get you out the door into a paying CFI job quickly by training you for the checkride and doing a whopping 3 or 4 ground sessions (not including CFI school). Would I do it again? I think all of us have out complaints about ATP, but it gets it done fast and I needed to get it done fast so... do the math.
My personal opinion is that safety pilot time is not as useful as time spent flying the airplane- not even close. I would rather have had the 37 hours of manipulator of controls time instead of 37 hours of talking on the radio and programming the GPS, which I already knew how to do. I also already knew how to say "Standard bank"! to my training partner.
SP time useful?
Yes.
37 hours of SP time necessary?
No.
Yep, I didn't read the fine print because I didn't know to look for something I would have never imagined existed.
Everyone is different- that's why we all have different opinions.
It is what it is.
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to sound as harsh as my reply sounded, but I still feel that waiting to get the rating can be a mistake. If its a seniority issue then you need to get in line at some point, why not now.
I'm not trying to start a fight, especially about you knowing what safety pilot time is, but the point remains to learn all you can before investing in training. If your lesson learned helps other do that, great. just make my point and it has been made. As you so wisely said we all have opinions and it is what it is. I respect them all and learn from everyone.
For the record I'm not in love aith ATP, and I too have the same debt, it just served my particular circumstances well, and I feel I got exactly what I paid for, thats all. The safety pilot time will always be an efficient way to build toward the commercial rating at any school, and as I said before, 37 hours won't even be a blip on the radar of our logbooks by the time a hiring board is looking at them.
CFI and MEI time will, so get the ratings and the students will come. I just now started getting the multi students, but thats only because I had the rating when I started instructing here and am the next in line.
If airlines start calling and you need the time now, then find a safety pilot
I'm not trying to start a fight, especially about you knowing what safety pilot time is, but the point remains to learn all you can before investing in training. If your lesson learned helps other do that, great. just make my point and it has been made. As you so wisely said we all have opinions and it is what it is. I respect them all and learn from everyone.
For the record I'm not in love aith ATP, and I too have the same debt, it just served my particular circumstances well, and I feel I got exactly what I paid for, thats all. The safety pilot time will always be an efficient way to build toward the commercial rating at any school, and as I said before, 37 hours won't even be a blip on the radar of our logbooks by the time a hiring board is looking at them.
CFI and MEI time will, so get the ratings and the students will come. I just now started getting the multi students, but thats only because I had the rating when I started instructing here and am the next in line.
If airlines start calling and you need the time now, then find a safety pilot
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
oh, and for the monthly payment you can't make. I feel your pain. Try getting a bachelors, second bachelors, or masters with a pell grant and defer your loan a little longer. That is assuming there is a way to afford it later. Just a thought. Its a screw around with the system but works in dire straights
I have 32 multi, but to my understanding, none of it is PIC. I did all the flying with an MEI on board (insurance req), then the check ride. I'd have to get 15 PIC to even do the MEI. Am I correct?
Just because you flew with an MEI doesn't mean it can't be pic. Depends how the training took place. Similar to doing your instrument rating, all the training hours you are getting in the airplane you are rated for are logged as dual received and pic. If you do an initial multi commercial you need at least 10 hours performing the duties of pic which would be logged as such. If you got your private multi then went right to your multi commercial then all those hours after your private multi even when flown with a MEI can be logged as PIC.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Were you rated for the aircraft? If not, the only thing you can count as PIC is your checkride, which is somewhat debatable since it is not mentioned in 61.51
Yes, you will need 15 PIC to do the MEI, and 5 hours in type to teach in whatever aircraft you wish to teach in, if it is for a certificate or rating.
Similar threads
