Multi Add-on Confusion!

[Ian_J]

I'll be training for the commercial mutiengine add on soon and am getting confused on the requirements. Basically there are schools out there who say this:

Commercial Multi-engine add-on

• 4.5 hours Dual Instruction Pa44 Seminole
• Airplane rental for check ride
• Books
• Ground School

And websites that say this:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The most cost effective method is to wait until you have gotten your commercial pilot's certificate. Once the single commercial or private is done, you can do a multi-engine add-on quickly because you don't have to meet all the specified training requirements for a given certificate. The add-on can be as few as 8 hours depending on your skill as a pilot.[/FONT]

And the instructor at the school I'll be training at says the same things. I believe it to be true that you only need 4-10 hours to do the add-on, but I can't find in the FARs why.

61.129(b) says:

For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least— (i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

It's all those instances of "multiengine airplane" that I bolded which confuse me.

I've poured through the FAR and searched the internet to no avail. I am sure I'm over-looking something very simple, and it's bothering the hell out of me. Thanks for whomever can straighten me out.

 

[H46Bubba]

That reg is for the Commercial Multi Engine. If you have a CSEL, you're just getting a multi engine addon to your commercial cert. The sigle engine commercial covers all the crosscountry, manuevers and hour requirements. Basically your learning how to fly the multi and to perform instrument approaches in the it. Most schools advertise 141 hours not 61.

 

[Ian_J]

Thanks... but do you know where I can find that info in the regs?

 

[MFT1Air]

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—

For this aspect of the FAR, I understand that you can receive your private AMEL, then work to receive the time requirement necessary for the commercial multi add-on. Comment?

 

[Ian_J]

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—

For this aspect of the FAR, I understand that you can receive your private AMEL, then work to receive the time requirement necessary for the commercial multi add-on. Comment?

What I'm talking about is this:

- I have a Commercial ASEL certificate
- I want a Commercial AMEL Add-On

What do I have to do and why?

 

[H46Bubba]

That's the master plan! There is no reg. You're an instructor right? Tell me the diffeence between 141 and 61 hour requirements. Where are the 141 training reuirements listed. Not in 141. The regs specify 61 only. I beleive it's up to the school and the FSDO as far as time requirements. Most operate off the Cessna or Jeppson syllabus which has required hours for each required lesson both ground and air.

 

[launchpad]

That's the master plan! There is no reg. You're an instructor right? Tell me the diffeence between 141 and 61 hour requirements. Where are the 141 training reuirements listed. Not in 141. The regs specify 61 only. I beleive it's up to the school and the FSDO as far as time requirements. Most operate off the Cessna or Jeppson syllabus which has required hours for each required lesson both ground and air.

actually, there is a reg.....61.63(c) goes into what is needed for an additional class rating on an existing certificate. Under part 61, there is no requirement for a written exam or minimum training requirements (i.e. train to proficiency/PTS).

Part 141 Appendix I deals with a 141 program. Remember that the 141 programs are designed to be an entire entity (i.e. from zero time to commercial). The rules in part 141 only tell a school what kind of training they have to build into their syllabus. I'm pretty sure you'll never find a part 141 program being sold piecemeal (with the exception of CFI, II and MEI programs). If you're looking at schools for add-ons, it will be part 61 unless you already meet the flight time and experience that fits into their part 141 program. They will usually then give you credit for what you have and enroll you into the 141 program to finish it up.

I'll put 10$ on the fact that these programs you're looking at are part 61 programs. This is exactly why you see things as low as 4.5 hours and higher.

My personal thought on multi engine programs is that you should spent at least 10 hours training to get used to the higher performance, and especially single engine handing characteristics....
good luck

edit: you can also look at AC61-65E and see that there is only one endorsement necessary for adding a class rating to a certificate. If I recall correctly (and it's been a while), this was the only one I would sign for students doing their add-on ratings (part 61 or part 141)

 

[Ian_J]

actually, there is a reg.....61.63(c) goes into what is needed for an additional class rating on an existing certificate. Under part 61, there is no requirement for a written exam or minimum training requirements (i.e. train to proficiency/PTS).

Part 141 Appendix I deals with a 141 program. Remember that the 141 programs are designed to be an entire entity (i.e. from zero time to commercial). The rules in part 141 only tell a school what kind of training they have to build into their syllabus. I'm pretty sure you'll never find a part 141 program being sold piecemeal (with the exception of CFI, II and MEI programs). If you're looking at schools for add-ons, it will be part 61 unless you already meet the flight time and experience that fits into their part 141 program. They will usually then give you credit for what you have and enroll you into the 141 program to finish it up.

I'll put 10$ on the fact that these programs you're looking at are part 61 programs. This is exactly why you see things as low as 4.5 hours and higher.

My personal thought on multi engine programs is that you should spent at least 10 hours training to get used to the higher performance, and especially single engine handing characteristics....
good luck

Thank you! I knew it was something simple like that. Even though I referenced that exact reg when getting an additional category rating (Helo to ASEL), I completely forgot about it and the class rating part.

And don't worry, I plan on getting quality training and don't plan on being a 4 hour wonder.

 

[timeoff]

What I'm talking about is this:

- I have a Commercial ASEL certificate
- I want a Commercial AMEL Add-On

What do I have to do and why?

Train to proficiency then get the endorsement for the practical. There is no hour requirement.

That is why you see all these two day multi add-on programs out there.

 

[turbojet28]

Like the others have said, there's 61.63 which is just entitled "Additional Aircraft Ratings". Getting an add-on seems to be as simple as whatever training is deemed needed for a logbook endorsement to take the ride. No written required.