MS Flight Simulator

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Great for private stuff

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In my experience with FS, the landing picture of the default 172SP is all wrong, just TRY to do slow flight and stalls with proper flight characteristics, and if you can do a steep turn WITHOUT looking at the instruments in FS 2004, it might have some value. Other than that, I say stick with using it to learn nav and instrument stuff.
 
Having a few thousand hours of 737 time and having "flown" the MSFS 737, it's not even comparable. Flying-wise, systems wise, none of it is even close.

When you hop into the cockpit, you'll learn that it's not a matter of knowing where a switch is physically located, it's all about where you feel it's located. Which is a good reason why 'dry time' in the cockpit is crucial to flight training.

If someone asked me to draw a diagram of where the APU switch is on the MD-80, I couldn't do it. But I could certainly motion my arm and 'feel' for where it's supposed to be.

That's one thing that MSFS is never going to be able to duplicate.

Actually, it really oughta be called "Microsoft Electronic Flight Training Device" because an actual simulator is something else entirely different.
 
I offer a challenge to anyone who knocks MSFS. Practice slow flight and or steep turns in flight simulator until you can perform them to PTS. I promise it won't be easy. Later that day go and do them in the plane. You will be amazed at how easy that is, even though the sim didn't fly like the plane.

Now for a pre-private learning steep turns for the first time - maybe not a good idea. But for anyone who has learned the maneuver and is trying to clean it up in preperation for a checkride, give em a try in flight simulator, then hit the real plane, and you will make amazing progress toward consistanly staying within PTS.

Landing practice admittedly isn't great for FS, but if you have rudder pedals it is good for practicing crosswind approach to the runway, including forward slip to no flap approach which FS helped me a lot with. Some people have had some luck practicing chandelles or lazy 8s, I haven't. Steep spirals or ground reference maneuvers really cannot be done at all in FS. FS planes don't seem to stall right, so practicing stalls isn't that helpfull, but steep turns, slow flight, and possibly chandelles and lazy 8s or crosswind landing approaches can be practiced.

Another good application is cross country flying. You'd be surprised how close the landscape is in FS2004 to the actual terrain. As a pre-private I'd fly my cross countries the day before in FS to test out my flight planning. Each time going some place I'd never been felt very familiar to me after flying the route in flight simulator. One time I discovered that my cruising altitude would have put me into a mountain. Granted I'm sure my instructor would have caught that, and I probably would have too as we would have approached the terrain, it was good that I learned that lesson safley on the ground.

Many times my instrusctors have told me that they had never seen so much overnight improvement. Those were the nights I practiced in fligth sim. The reason it works is because it does not fly like a real plane. Take away the tactile sense and it is much harder to control the plane. Once you are comfortable without it, go back in the plane and so how easy it is to have that tactile sense back. Its like shooting an approach full panel after perfecting it partial panel.

Speaking of which - there is no disputing its value for any kind of instrument practice. Instrument flying is 99% procedural. You don't need a plane to learn that. Having trouble with an approach? - position yourself at the IAF, shoot the approach, then put yourself back at the IAF to try it again. Shoot it 5 times partial panel to minimums and you'll impress the hell out of your instructor and save yourself lots and lots of $$. Try it with hold entries, DME arcs, intercepting and tracking courses, anything you can think of. Not only saves you time in the plane, it actually saves you clock time. It will take less time to practice the stuff int he sim because you don't have to taxi to the runway, do a runup, takeoff, land, or fly enroute to whre you need to go. Just put yourself there.

It is a great tool, don't underestimate it. And even if it dosn't work for you, that dosn't mean it won't work for anybody. It has helped me a lot and saved me a lot of $$.
 
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Flight Simulator has taught me alot, maybe not in the sense of flying but in the sense of terminology, and were things are located

Example put me into a CRJ and put a person who wants to be a pilot but has no training, I bet I find the APU faster than that person with out the training since I have MSFS

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Ok, you can find a switch in a cockpit.
Do you know where the APU itself is located?
Do you know what the APU is?
How it works?
How much fuel it uses?
What it powers?
How it generates electricity?
How many volts does it generate?
How much current can it output?
How many stages is it?
Which stage does the bleed air come from?
How much bleed air does it provide?
What can you use that bleed air for?
What are its operating temperature limits?
What are its altitude limits?
Speed limits?
How much battery voltage do you need to start it?
How many amps does it draw during start?
Can you recognize a hung start and what do you do about it?

FS is good for procedural stuff like IFR practice. You can learn the layout of a cockpit much more effectivly by sitting in front of a static trainer for a little while, and knowing the cockpit layout doesn't do you much good if you don't know anything about the systems behind it.
 
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but steep turns, slow flight, and possibly chandelles and lazy 8s or crosswind landing approaches can be practiced.

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By using the instruments? Honestly, that's not how I was taught to do VFR manuevers and not how I intend to teach my students. If you're using a visual reference for chandelles and lazy 8s, it's pretty tough to fly the maneuvers in FS since you keep having to play with the HAT switch. Crosswind landing approaches, maybe. I've also never been able to get the horizon to line up right for visual steep turns. Instrument steep turns, no problem. Too bad those aren't in the PTS anymore. Maybe I just suck at FS, though.....
 
Personally I think that MSFS helped me a great deal when it came to flight training. For the early stages of primary training you get a feel for a lot of the concepts that seem a little dry when you read them in a book. To someone who has never flown before, the basic instrumentation can seem very confusing until properly understood. A student that has spent time on MSFS will already have a working knowledge of what the instruments are telling him/her. Yes, for the PPL you need to keep your head out of the cockpit 95% of the time, but you still need to know what the instruments are telling you.

VFR cross country flights can be practiced before hand on MSFS. It will give you a feel for the location and layout of airports, major land marks and a generalization of local terrain. All good to know, and I still use MSFS for this purpose when I have a trip to an unfamiliar airport. It is not 100% accurate for sure, but it is not bad either. You just have to use it as an extra tool with known limitations. Better than no tool though IMHO.

It's usefulness for instrument procedure training has already been well covered in this thread.

Basically I think you get as much out of MSFS as you put into it. Look at it as just a game, and that is all it will be. Use it as a training tool and you will benefit from it.
 
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Maybe I just suck at FS, though.....

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You hit a valid pont, Kell! I was a hardcore flight simmer before I had ever goten close to an airplane. So, maybe that gave me an upper hand.

I can't imagine how much harder learning to fly would have been without flight sim . . . I'd still be trying to figure out that darn VOR and heading indicator . . .
 
I used ProPilot as a simulator when I did my PPL (1999) and my instructor was ok with it. Problem of high approached due to graphics was my biggest thing to overcome. ProPilot made you do the master on and engine start each time, you you got use to a flow of start.

I also attended an FAA meeting last night (one of the Safety Education Seminar) and they said using MSFS really assists with knowing your environment. I agree that I should of done it before my trip into a small field last week. Normal airport info didnt give the same impression as when flying over it, and then landing.
 
I found flight sim to be very useful for XCs. It is a tremendous confidence builder because you get to see the landmarks just like they'd appear on your route of flight. You get to see the checkpoints you've selected, and see what it looks like.

People say it's great for instrument training, too, but I tell you what. I can't figure out how to tune in VORs on that damn thing so for me, it's kind of like, well, let's simulate a VFR flight.
 
Before you even consider using MSFS, invest in rudder pedals and a yoke.
Then:

MSFS is great for:
- IFR procedural stuff
- "testing out" a flight plan

MSFS is OK for:
- some ground ref. maneuvers (e.g. chandelles)
- crosswind landings
- slips
- steep turns
- learning trim technique

MSFS is crap for:
- practicing stalls/spins
- getting the "site picture" for the flare to a landing
 
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It is a tremendous confidence builder because you get to see the landmarks just like they'd appear on your route of flight.

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Depening on the graphics card, RAM and processor speed.
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Unless you've got a high end system, it's getting to the point now that unless you live in an area where the horizon looks like a jagged line, it's just "so-so" for vis manuevers.

I'll agree it's good for mentally getting the procedures, but I'm a huge fan of motor memory skills. Nothing beats sitting in the actual aircraft with the engine off on the ground and going through the checks and flows. MSFS gives you an IDEA of where things might be, but you take someone out of the 172SP in MSFS and put them in an older 172, it might take them a bit to find the avionics master (if there is one). We've got one Seminole here that will probably be down for a while (prop strike and a lot of legal issues involved), so it just sits on the ramp. Perfect for running through procedures, though.

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I can't figure out how to tune in VORs on that damn thing so for me, it's kind of like, well, let's simulate a VFR flight.

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But you can tune them in the real plane, right? In MSFS, you click on the button (or drop down menu) for the radio stack, click on the digits until you get the right freq, flip it to active, then hover over the VOR knob until you get a + or - sign. Just keep clicking until you get the right radial.
 
Thanks for your input guys... it looks like i'll get flight sim, and a yoke and pedals.
For the price, i'm willing to test it out and see if it's a good tool for me.
 
What everyone else forgets to mention... It may be a person's only way to "fly an aircraft" I don't start my flight training untill september, so right now, when I feel the itch to fly, the closest I can get is to just play some flight simulator. I always said that if I couldn't pass a Class 3 medical or something so I definetley couldn't be a pilot, the first thing I'd do is build one of those crazy life sized 737 cockpit simulations in my garage.
 
sorry Chrispee, this is wayyyy off topic, but where are you from? Not trying to sound wierd, but there is a real slim chance I may know you!
 
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sorry Chrispee, this is wayyyy off topic, but where are you from? Not trying to sound wierd, but there is a real slim chance I may know you!

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i'm from vancouver, canada
 
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You'd be surprised how close the landscape is in FS2004 to the actual terrain

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Try flying the VOR approach into Camarillo, CA (KCMA). Half way down you hit a mountain that doesn't exist in real life.

I have an old version of flight sim though, so maybe they fixed it.
 
Go fly out of SESM I think MS blew it on the mesh for that airport it’s at the bottom of a big pit you might need the heli to get out of it.
 
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but steep turns, slow flight, and possibly chandelles and lazy 8s or crosswind landing approaches can be practiced.

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By using the instruments? Honestly, that's not how I was taught to do VFR manuevers and not how I intend to teach my students. If you're using a visual reference for chandelles and lazy 8s, it's pretty tough to fly the maneuvers in FS since you keep having to play with the HAT switch. Crosswind landing approaches, maybe. I've also never been able to get the horizon to line up right for visual steep turns. Instrument steep turns, no problem. Too bad those aren't in the PTS anymore. Maybe I just suck at FS, though.....

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Remember I'm not talking about teaching the maneuvers, I'm talking about cleaning them up, after they have been learned in the plane. This is not for someone just starting out. The idea is to get a feel for staying ahead of the plane. Anticipate when the nose will drop/rise and be ready to act accordingly. If you can do this without beeing able to feel the plane, you will have no trouble at all when you can. As for chandelles and lazy 8s, like I said I haven't had much luck, but thouse that do use the hat switch. As for landing approaches, beleive it or not you can actually see the runway out the windshield in flight sim. The landing flare dosn't do much for you, but I'm just talking about the approach to the runway, not the landing.
 
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Not a real world pilot, but some payware aircraft out their are VERY realistic, programable FMC's, MCDU's ....they have the total package, I was told by a real world pilot that FS (from me flying on it) has put me at an advantage

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True as you can see on my fourm picture.
But I have yet to start PPL training. Hope to start soon but I have heard from a few pilots that FS has helped. One just got his PPL other is working on his Insturment and other last time I heard was flying Dash-8-300.
The two PPL said FS will help with insturments and basic knowledge of flying like VOR or just some basic ATC.
The Dash-8 pilot who had a PSS Dash-8-300 Add on for FS said it helped him learn the insturment scan better and where everything was.
Heard a CFI say if you want to get a MSFS IFR experiance fly into a cloud pause the sim and than spin your self in a chair a few times so you are dizzy. Than restart the sim and fly.
Done it a few times and I did good.
But everyone needs to start somewhere.

I know MSFS is nothing like real world flying. And after reading some of these replies I amazed on what FS could help me with.
If it was not for MSFS 2000 I would not even be into aviation.
 
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