Mooney M20C for private pilot rating

29.92inHg

Well-Known Member
I have a guy that wants to buy a mooney M20 C and then get his private as fast as he can. I have abobut 15 hours in that exact model and enjoyed every moment of it (especially the manual gear), so I feel comfortable flying it, but where do you start with the private rating and how do you tie in the complex side of it into the trraining. Should I take him up in an archer or something for the first 5-10 hours or just go for it. (or just tell him he's crazy)

Any Advice would be welcome, Keep in mind he hasn't bought it yet, so there is some play there too.
 
I have a guy that wants to buy a mooney M20 C and then get his private as fast as he can. I have abobut 15 hours in that exact model and enjoyed every moment of it (especially the manual gear), so I feel comfortable flying it, but where do you start with the private rating and how do you tie in the complex side of it into the trraining. Should I take him up in an archer or something for the first 5-10 hours or just go for it. (or just tell him he's crazy)

Any Advice would be welcome, Keep in mind he hasn't bought it yet, so there is some play there too.

No different than any other aircraft. Just incorporate the complex training into the normal operation of the aircraft.....gear/prop/MP is just part of that aircraft's operation. Military has done this for a very long time, so it's nothing cosmic.
 
I was thinking a little more ground to begin with. The throttle is the gas pedal in your car without a spring to rebound analogy doesn't really apply as much anymore. Maybe the ten speed bike analogy will work though. He seems like a smart guy. I am just worried that he keeps stressing learning as fast as he can. On top of that the Mooney manual gear is a litle strange, do I just pull it up the first few times and then let him try. I'm used to the takeoff being all theirs from the discovery flight

Forgive me if my analogies don't make sense without the instruction

And on a side note, Thanks MikeD for always being there with rational thought. The short time I have been here you have been a great help

I am sure I am making this more complicated than it is, but for a guy I have to teach how to read an altimiter it seems a little overload to add all of the other stuff
 
What is this guy's interest in the M20 and why does he want his private license so quickly? Aside from the training you referred to, this guy should make sure the M20 actually fits the mission for whatever flying he plans to do after getting his license. A lot of people get infatuated by top speed specs and would ultimately be happier in a plane that is 20 knots slower if it can carry more, have simpler maintenance, and be easier for a low time pilot to fly.



I don't know much about the M20 series, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with training a low time (or zero time) pilot to fly high performance aircraft. I'm currently working with several clients doing similar training. A student pilot in a 182, a low time private pilot working on his instrument rating in a turbo 206, and still another in an SR-22, and it's working fine.

That said, be aware of a few caveats. It will take longer to become proficient, so don't try to rush. What might take 40 hours to learn in a 172 might take 40 hours in an M20, or it might take twice or three times as long. Who knows. Both client and instructor have to be patient and not compare apples to oranges.

As an instructor, make sure you're very comfortable with the limits of the plane before trying to teach it to somebody else. Mooneys don't land like Cessnas, so you'll have to be on your toes, especially during the initial stages of teaching him how to land. You probably shouldn't let botched landings go as far as you might in a plane built to be a trainer.

As far as complex training goes, teach it like anything else. Just do it. It's another thing to learn, which is why I say it might take extra time for him to become proficient, but that's life. Just like how we teach people about flaps and carb heat in the pattern, your guy will also need to learn to handle the prop and gear.

If the guy understands these factors and still wants to buy/train in the plane, go for it. It's not the easiest or cheapest way to get the job done, but I don't see any reason why it's impossible.
 
I was thinking a little more ground to begin with. The throttle is the gas pedal in your car without a spring to rebound analogy doesn't really apply as much anymore. Maybe the ten speed bike analogy will work though.

Definitely will need more ground...later in training.

For the first few hours, keep it simple and leave the prop lever full forward for the entire lesson, or else set the prop yourself and explain that you'll cover what it does after he's got a few flights under his belt.

He seems like a smart guy. I am just worried that he keeps stressing learning as fast as he can.

He probably is a smart guy and will probably do fine. Still, set the expectation from Day 1 that flying takes time to master. Be clear that intense, efficient training is good, but rushing or cutting corners in the name of keeping a schedule is bad for both him and you.

On top of that the Mooney manual gear is a litle strange, do I just pull it up the first few times and then let him try. I'm used to the takeoff being all theirs from the discovery flight

Sure, sounds good. Whatever looks like it will work in the moment. If it seems he can handle it, talk him through it, otherwise do it yourself. Same as most other tasks when teaching a beginner to fly.

I am sure I am making this more complicated than it is, but for a guy I have to teach how to read an altimiter it seems a little overload to add all of the other stuff

*Flying* is overload ;)

Seriously though. Everybody is overwhelmed the first few hours. A 152 is overwhelming for someone who's never flown before. Then, over time, everyone adapts to the environment and the workload slowly shifts from the instructor to the student. Your guy is no different.
 
Thanks for the reply. The Mooney does fit his end game, and I am comfortable with the plane, and just for the performance sake, the M20C is a 1962 version of the Lancair-Columbia-Cessna400, but for $50,000 (round number). I have yet to have the mooney maintenece conversation. My concern is not so much my ability to teach it as much as it is the starting point. What needs to be accomplished before we get into the plane. I am thinking systems in detail. I believe as I think through this I am answering my own concerns, but still want to hear other opinions.

Once again, thanks for helping me think through this, even if I am just thinking out loud.
 
JRH I just read your second post and once again you reassuring the thoguths I had . Thats what I needed
Thanks
 
Nothing wrong with using a mooney for the ppl. As was said you teach the operation the same way you would teach a 152. You just have a little more to talk about. On the other hand, you said he wants to get one as fast as possible...It WILL take him longer to finish in a mooney then a "typical" trainer. I would encourage him to train, in a trainer and then check out in the mooney!
 
Nothing wrong with using a mooney for the ppl. As was said you teach the operation the same way you would teach a 152. You just have a little more to talk about. On the other hand, you said he wants to get one as fast as possible...It WILL take him longer to finish in a mooney then a "typical" trainer. I would encourage him to train, in a trainer and then check out in the mooney!


I did a PPL in a owners SR22 turbo a couple of months ago, it took quite a bit longer but it is possible. I made him very aware when we started that it would take longer, and cost him more to go this route, but he was ok with that.

Landings were the biggest hurdle, I have 0 time in a mooney, but you just cant accept (for learnings sake) the poor to marginal approaches and landings in some planes like you can in a cessna. The margin for error is much less.
 
I've done this a few times, there are some things to watch out for.

Don't let the student run the show. They don't know they're a 16yr old with the keys to dad's corvette. You have to impress upon them just how unforgiving of "student" errors a Mooney really is.

Your ground briefs are going to have to be more thorough than they would be in a 172. I would also avoid touch and goes as much as possible, they're just too much work for a newbie in a Johnson bar Mooney.

Now, speaking of the Johnson Bar. Make sure they know to get that gear up before 80. If you do, it only takes 8lbs of pressure to raise a properly balanced gear system. If not, they're going to have to horse the gear up and they'll do the famous Mooney Wave.

I've got about 300 instructional hours in Mooney's so if you have any questions shoot me a PM.
 
I would have the guy at least get to his first solo in a more common trainer. The penalty for flaring too high is much worse in a Mooney with its laminar flow wing.

When I was teaching commercial in an M20C, my takeover point had to be much sooner than in a Cessna.
 
I agree with Mike D and jrh.

There is nothing wrong with the training taking place in a mooney. It may take a little extra studying on the student's part to understand more about systems, but other than that there is no greater inherent risk as compared to another training aircraft.


However, having been in the scenario as well, I'd like to emphasize:
Don't let the student run the show.
 
Thanks alot for all the responses. I think it will work fine. I talked to the student and stressed all of the above. I think I made him realize that it may take some time. This was after he asked "if you can fly 80 hrs in a month, why can't I get my rating in two weeks." I explained why and he understood.(finally) I may not have enough time in my schedule to do it all for him, but I know a few people around here that do. I'll help him until then
 
I agree with Mike D and jrh.

There is nothing wrong with the training taking place in a mooney. It may take a little extra studying on the student's part to understand more about systems, but other than that there is no greater inherent risk as compared to another training aircraft.


However, having been in the scenario as well, I'd like to emphasize:

I wouldn't say there is no difference. I would prefer to have breaks available with a PPL student, and the spin in a mooney is nothing like a spin in a 152. You can get yourself in real trouble if you spin a mooney!
 
The brakes could be a real issue, (almost a deal killer)and I've already thought about the spin consequences. I agree wholly.
 
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