Heard about it but no didn't see it
Mom & Pop vs ATP
- Thread starter Maximilian_Jenius
- Start date
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
I think this is it.jskibo said:
BarbieDreamPilot
homeless
So many ATP threads. You get what you pay for. Many of the ATP instructors are graduates of the program there to build time in their guaranteed job. They do not get paid well enough to really care. They work 7 days a week making peanuts. No ground. If you don't like your instructor at a mom and pop you just leave, no harm no foul. Same thing if you decide flying isn't for you. Not so at ATP.
I don't know about that "fixed right away" stuff, maybe if you train out of a mx base. I got stuck ferrying broken planes on the XC stage and problems were definitely not fixed promptly at any point in training.
ATP is running 100 hours multi, which is a complete waste of money these days if you're looking for airlines. 25 is all you need. You will get no choice in instructor and have to pay up front at ATP. I think it is only a viable option if financing is a problem, and even then taking out a 70k loan for a job paying 30-40k the first several years is a bad idea. I see no situation where ATP "wins".
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
God damnit, Max.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I don't know what you're talking about. Lol!
pilotdude1987
Soy Piloto!
In the end it's all up to your friend and what path he wants to take. There are certainly advantages to both and the debate would go on forever... if we let it. But it's his/her decision. a couple of things he might consider. Is he/she young or old? Are they the stop and smell the roses type? Is money an issue? Does he want to just push through as fast as he can? Does he thrive in a structured environment or a more laid back easy going environment? Im not saying you can't have structure at a mom and pop shop but typically not the case. And why is he/she getting into aviation in the first place? That should be a big question he/she has to answer him/herself. Getting into aviation as a career because you knew a pilot once and think it looks "cool" is the wrong reason to start flight training. not saying those pilots don't go the distance and succeed but typically if you are getting into aviation because it looked cool and you want to make 6 figures you will end up being highly disappointed and prolly become a pilot who doesn't give AF. That leads to poor performance and crashes. Ok I'm gonna shut up now before i go off on a tangent that I wouldn't be able to control.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Mom n Pops are not all created equal. By that same token, the mills can be blandish.
There are certainly some boutique shops out there with some really good local talent, but it can be highly variable.
If you're looking for a zero to hero toboggan ride, that's one thing. If you are looking to have fun and maybe learn something before you're done, you might try a club or Mom n Pop, but you're going to need to be very picky about instructors, which not everyone is prepared to do.
There has been a metric •-ton of institutional knowledge that has been lost over the past 15 years while this business consumed itself. It's still out there, but you're going to need to dig for it.
RIchman
There are certainly some boutique shops out there with some really good local talent, but it can be highly variable.
If you're looking for a zero to hero toboggan ride, that's one thing. If you are looking to have fun and maybe learn something before you're done, you might try a club or Mom n Pop, but you're going to need to be very picky about instructors, which not everyone is prepared to do.
There has been a metric •-ton of institutional knowledge that has been lost over the past 15 years while this business consumed itself. It's still out there, but you're going to need to dig for it.
RIchman
z987k
Well-Known Member
That's an incredibly normal way to launch after coming out of a shop not on water.
BarbieDreamPilot
homeless
If you can't find a mom and pop 61 with structure, then you should provide the structure yourself. Buy the jepp lesson plans and the corresponding online course and work through the ground for each lesson. Just tell them "look, if you want my business then we are using the Jeppesen (or equivalent) lesson plans for each flight and I expect a good pre and post flight" and be willing to pay for 0.3 ground if you have to in order to get those sweet, sweet briefings. Flying without a pre and post flight briefing because the ground is expensive will cost you more in the long run for obvious reasons, and you most likely won't get a good one at ATP because they don't pay the instructors for it.
scooter2525
Very well Member
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
My friend is almost forty years old, and hasn't flown in like ten plus year since he got his PPL. Due to his age he tells me that he kinda wants to get it done fast. He also states that he would really enjoy having fun while learning too. But he worries that since he hasn't flown in a grip, that maybe the fast track might not be the best fit for him. But he says he does like all the glossy fast track zero to hero lies that the big mill is selling him. With the mom & pop shops he says he wonders how long it will take him to get to 1500 hrs. He's unsure which environment he performs better in structure vs. laid back, but he's learned in both in the past. Money also isn't an issue. He has $18k in cash.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Your friend sounds a whole lot like fiddy cent
Probably nothing more than just an obscure coincidence!
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pilotdude1987
Soy Piloto!
he should be able to find a mom and pop shop to that is willing to work with him everyday. i got my instrument in 2 months at a mom and pop shop. you just have to be up front with the instructor. if you find a relatively young flight instructor and tell him you want to fly everyday he should be chomping at the bit to take that. it means a lot of flight time and cash in a relatively short time.
ScorpionStinger
Well-Known Member
Someone gets it!
It's a choice to be ignorant and uninformed. It's a choice to be educated and think outside box. I don't feel sorry for those with huge flight training costs. Its a choice. Go go go go get there fast! Or become the best aviator possible, learning from instructors and others who have been in the industry over 2 years.
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threeighteen
Well-Known Member
If you do a fast-track program with ATP it's a good idea to tack on an extra $10-15k for all the extras that aren't included in the program's price. Extra training beyond the numbers given in the program will cost you $450~$550 per hour in the Seminole.
Why the hate for ATP? Everything you are saying you don't get, I did, at ATP. I also studied my ass off, so the pre and post briefings were no more than a review, as it should be at any shop.
BarbieDreamPilot
homeless
Never said I didn't get structure at my 61 school. Actually it was great. I have several posts here about ATP and I make it very clear why I don't care for that pilot mill. Pre and post flights briefings are definitely review - I never advocated for anything different. That's a great story about studying hard; so did I. But when you don't pay an instructor for his/her work, then don't expect them to do it for free. I don't think pilots should be signing up for ATP on the hopes that their assigned CFI is willing to stick around for 15 minutes of free instruction.