Mom & Pop vs ATP

Maximilian_Jenius

Maximilian_Jenius

Super User
A friend of mine is looking at flight training centers around the city. I told him to check out mom & pop shops. vs ATP. Because everyone always says they're cheaper.

They're not. According to what he showed me, they seem to both be running neck & neck.

One mom & pop here school here in PHX has zero to hero, for about $52k. About same price as ATP's similar airline program.

Examples:

http://www.arizonaflighttrainingcen...content&view=article&id=57&itemid=1&Itemid=61

https://atpflightschool.com/airline-career-pilot-program/index.html

He asked me why he should go to a mom & pop shop, over ATP. If they're nearly the same price. I had no answer. Maybe one of you guys do.
 
Meet the instructors at both. ATP style will most likely get you done faster, but instructors tend to be there just for the hours.

Mom and Pops CFI's tend to be lifer's that really enjoy teaching. Now there are both kinds at each place, but these examples tend to be common.

In the end it just depends on how fast / goals of the student. I networked at my local mom and pops and found a jet gig out of it....

Probably catch flak on that but that's just what I've noticed.
 
In my current experience, I would have saved money going to ATP. Instead I'm plodding along in the part 61 world. I *think* I'm better for it as I've intentionally sought out different instructors along the way to better expose myself to the many different ways to approach the goal of being an excellent aviator. ATP has their system that seems to work well, but there's not a lot of depth or dimension to it. Perhaps that's not important, I don't know.

I think most of the guys and gals here have done their flight training so long ago that they've lost touch with what things cost these days. No grandpa, cokes are not a nickel anymore...
 
I went into the ATP program with my PPL, and here are my thoughts. Keep in mind this was almost five years ago.
  • Very structured. I really enjoyed this part of the training. You could fly with any instructor and you wouldnt get crap for doing something wrong.
  • The cross country phase is awesome, and you learn a lot. I was in Sacramento and we went to Long Beach a few times, then made our way to Las Vegas via So Cal and Phoenix. The amount of info you learn when paired with another student is amazing. My first time in busy LA airspace I was with another student.
  • The flat cost was a nice feature. You didnt have to worry about running out of money, and being strung a long. But at the same time I didnt feel rushed. If you study hard, and take advantage of the sim it goes smoothly for most people.
  • Flying every day to stay proficient was great. The school before I went to ATP had me flying twice a week at the most. It was hard to stay proficient, so I wasted a lot of money relearning things I learned the week before.
  • I got super lucky and had awesome instructors. But a lot of this depends on the location. I think some of the smaller locations were the best.
  • Maintenance was awesome. Anytime something was broken it got fixed right away.
 
i got my multi at ATP and did all my other training part 61. Looking back, it took me longer to go part 61 but i think the quality and experience was much better. My instructor(s) are still real good personal friends of mine and were actual jet pilots with real life flying experiences. I feel what i got out of my 61 training was far better than what i would've got at a 141 school. So many 141 schools and ATP, American Flyers type schools never break the cycle of "school" flying. their instructors were taught to fly the way the school wanted them to fly/teach and when they become cfi's thats how they teach/fly. It's a vicious cycle. During my professional flying life i've meet a lot of pilots who took the career path as fast as they could and never got to enjoy flying for just flying. I personally ran a 61 flight school myself for 2 years after getting my cfi and although yes i was more expensive than a american flyers or ATP school. I believe My students enjoyed the experience much more than rushing through as fast as they could. There are no "fun trips" with quick school. Just my two cents. :)
 
With out deconstructing the rest of the program, take a look at the price for the private pilots license. $11600 at this mom and pop shop or $10000 at ATP.

You need 40 hours, of which 20 has to be dual. So let's say you rent that 172 for 124 an hour to complete your private on your own
Private Pilot breakdown
40 hours for the plane = 5000
20 hours for instructor = 1000
For a total of 6 grand. But let's say you did 30 hours of dual, that is still only 6500.
Where some of these places make some off their money is ground school. If you don't have the money to spend, there are plenty of resources, books, videos, members on this site to help you get the knowledge.

The key to the mom and pop shop is
A) reviewing the requirements in part 61 and coming up with a solid timeline and plan for completing each of the tasks.
B) having the discipline to learn and prepare flights on your own.

Granted for every hour over 40, you eat into the 4K that you saved, but you would have to fly 22 hours with an instructor before you reached the $11600 of the standardized program. It's even cheaper if you can rent a 152.
 
I went to ATP, instructed outside. With ATP, you know exactly what you're going to get. No one will hold your hand, what you get out of it is exactly what you put into it. Quite honestly, if your buddy is a self starter, I'd say ATP. He'll be done much quicker.
 
I took the Mom and Pop route, and loved it. They cared about my learning, and were professional instructors. The majority were old airline guys, and had a tremendous amount on knowledge and teaching experience.

I think both paths can be good, or can be terrible. It all depends on the instructors that you work with. I wanted to flexibility to leave a school if I did not like the instructor or was not learning what I needed from them. I paid as I went, with nothing upfront. I feel that I had to be self disciplined, but it worked for me.
 
Instead of looking for Zero to hero mom and pops, look for a flying club with an active instructor.

We have 4 actives. Several do accelerated programs, and none of our guys are running up time to jump to the airlines

Private - $8600, 10 days, 45 hours

Instrument - $7100 8 days, 42 hours

Commercial - $3700, 3 days, 15 hours

CFI - $6100, 7 days, 15 hours

CFII - $5100, 5 days, 15 hours

Prices include all typical costs such as joining the flying club, aircraft rental, fuel, instructor, books, equipment, insurance, and exams.

For CMEL our folks just go to Tom in Cadillac

We used to do the CSEL in the Mooney until the Avionics shop destroyed it. You'll have to suffer with the Lance now though....

Lance.jpg
 
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@jskibo where is this? I would save a ton of money flying out and wrapping up my commercial.

I spent about 12k getting my private at 115 for the plane and 50 for the instructor at about 70 hours. Instructor time was about 2x flight time for pre and post flight briefing when dual, so ended up being about 60 hours of instructor time.
 
uncreative said:
@jskibo where is this? I would save a ton of money flying out and wrapping up my commercial.

I spent about 12k getting my private at 115 for the plane and 50 for the instructor at about 70 hours. Instructor time was about 2x flight time for pre and post flight briefing when dual, so ended up being about 60 hours of instructor time.
Click to expand...


West Michigan Flying Club in Muskegon, MI
http://wmflyingclub.org/

All the instructor are good, but Greg is Gold Seal, 141 CP for Baker College and working on becoming a DPE now as well
 
I got my CMEL with Tom, too, and I agree that he was excellent!

I also did my training with a mix of part 61 and part 141 (mom n pop and university). I enjoyed the mom n pop atmosphere more, and I felt it allowed me way more control over my training. I always had excellent instructors, too.

The university had nicer aircraft, better standardization, but I never felt that I had a truly good flight instructor. That could have a different effect on each individual and their training.

Also, nowadays, it seems like certain companies actually do care about where you got your tickets. I have no concrete evidence to back that up, just seems that way. When I was getting my tickets 10 years ago, nobody ever thought it mattered where you did your training. I'm still not convinced that it makes enough of a difference to truly be a reason to base a decision off of, but may be a tie breaker. Just depends on their goals.

Overall, I liked mom n pop better, but that was also when it definitely was cheaper, so that also played a bigger factor.
 
I did part 61 training after not being able to get approved for loans at schools like ATP. I live in Phoenix and saved up most of my money towards flying by working line service. After getting my PPL I started time building. I paid upfront for 50 hour blocks of time in a 172, which came out to $70 an hour wet. I've flown all across the southwest on multiple day trips to New Mexico, Texas, California, and have visited most of the airports in Arizona. I flew whatever day/night XC flights I wanted with no flight instructors warming the right seat. I've flown over the Grand Canyon, Vegas, down the coast of California, and landed on Catalina island. Most important, I'm over 300 hours now with zero debt. Most pilot mill schools wont let you do any of this stuff alone or take your friends along with. The downside imo is I've had almost no ground school through PPL, IR, Commercial. I think schools with structure better prepare you for checkrides with standardized training, stage checks, and mock checkrides.

If you are in AZ I'd check these two out. Angel Aviation at GEU and Double Eagle at TUS.
 
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I don't know if it's just South FL, but I've been to several flight schools down here, and besides the CP, have never flown with a career CFI. It has always been guys building time and leaving as soon as they can.

I was recently looking ATP and the rates were comparable (maybe even cheaper) than some of the local flight schools, if you do a fair comparison. One of the factors that makes me decide against ATP is that it seems like having a bunch of multi time is no longer necessary for the regionals, so there is no incentive in paying for a whole lot of multi time.
 
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