Why is it that some controlers get upset when airplanes not having Mode C fly into Delta airports, well outside a Mode C vail. I was doing touch and goes the other day at KCMA, and heard the controler tell a Seneca to "Turn the x-sponder switch to the ALT setting." I started laughing because of the phraseology, but the tell "not rx-ing Mode-C" in a 150 my school owns that Mode C works on, on good days.
Mode C in Delta
- Thread starter mshunter
- Start date
Never seen a reg for that? You got a refrence?
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
I was just reading through this the other day. I can't remember where I found this at in the FAR but it did say that if it's equipped and operable, it should be turned on.
I'll have to search for the exact place I read this at.
I'll have to search for the exact place I read this at.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
Now I have the 2009 FAR/AIM in front of me, and near as I can tell, Alt encoding isn't required in Class D airspace. I'll reference §91.129 and §91.215 for that. It could easily be elsewhere but I haven't found it yet...
CN94559
New Member
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
AIM 4-1-20
In all cases, while in controlled airspace each pilot operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with 14 CFR section 91.413 shall operate the transponder, including Mode C if installed, on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC. In Class G airspace, the transponder should be operating while airborne unless otherwise requested by ATC.
So this means if you are coming into a Class Delta airport and your a/c is equipped you must have it on as long as it is opearable and current. If you're in class G....well it's a good idea to have it on, but not required.
In all cases, while in controlled airspace each pilot operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with 14 CFR section 91.413 shall operate the transponder, including Mode C if installed, on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC. In Class G airspace, the transponder should be operating while airborne unless otherwise requested by ATC.
So this means if you are coming into a Class Delta airport and your a/c is equipped you must have it on as long as it is opearable and current. If you're in class G....well it's a good idea to have it on, but not required.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
IslandFlyer,
I agree that it's a good idea and should be done, but doesn't being in the AIM and not FAR mean it's not enforceable?
I agree that it's a good idea and should be done, but doesn't being in the AIM and not FAR mean it's not enforceable?
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
I don't have enough time doing this stuff to know what is enforceable and what is not. I do know, however, that if it's in the FAR/AIM that I should probably abide by it.
As far as I understand it, the AIM is there to breakdown all the technical legal jargon that most of us can't understand. I know that a lot of the FAR's are pretty self-explanitory but a lot of it is confusing.
Now I know this is kind of getting off the original subject of being legal, but if you have it on your a/c and it works....why not use it? I mean if it helps keep you from scraping metal in the sky, then it seems like a pretty handy piece of equipment to have and use if it's not broken.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
Like I said, I totally agree. If I've got it and it works, I'll have it set to ALT unless otherwise requested.
On the legality issue, my understanding is that if it's in the AIM, it is only a recommendation or conventional practice (unenforceable). However, I believe they can still get you for reckless operation by not following the procedures outlined in the AIM. In other words, even though they can't technically enforce the lack of mode C use in class D airspace, you can still get in hot water for being reckless.
On the legality issue, my understanding is that if it's in the AIM, it is only a recommendation or conventional practice (unenforceable). However, I believe they can still get you for reckless operation by not following the procedures outlined in the AIM. In other words, even though they can't technically enforce the lack of mode C use in class D airspace, you can still get in hot water for being reckless.
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
Sounds about right, unless someone bends some metal...they don't care. But if something happens and you didn't have it on, then like you said, they'll fry you for the reckless operation.
borommakot
Well-Known Member
FAR 91.215:
There are a few different reasons for this:
1) The altitude filters are set to show mode-c for a/c from the surface to 5,000 AGL. If you are flying around without mode-c, it's very hard to tell at a quick glance if your target is actually you, or someone flying overhead above the filter.
2) When you call up 12 miles southwest inbound, I'll glance out that way on the radar, and there are often times numerous a/c in your vicinity. Some of the controllers in the tower will ask you to ident, but I find this often takes 10+ seconds to identify which plane is which. Instead, I will usually (90% of the time), ask you to "say altitude", and use that to get a good guess at who is who.
3) Again, if you call inbound from the southeast, and I have a departure also going southeast, I will have to watch to make sure that isn't a conflict. Pointing out traffic is time consuming and doesn't guarantee that you all won't hit. One of the easiest ways for me to ensure that separation exists is to observe your mode-c as 1200 descending and the departure at 1700 climbing, or something similar. If you don't have mode-c, you suddenly become a traffic conflict for every other aircraft in your vicinity, regardless of altitude.
4) Mode-c equipped aircraft "pop" off the radar screen much more readily. Almost every plane we're working has a little altitude readout next to it. I spend most of my time looking out the window and with binoculars, and only occasionally glance at the radar screen for a second or two, much like an instrument scan in IFR conditions. If yours is the only a/c out there without an altitude readout, it's just naturally going to be harder for me to pick it out.
So yeah, always use your mode-c, and don't get offended if the tower tells you "be advised, not receiving mode-c". We both know the regs say you can legally fly in our airspace without it, but I'm still going to remind you to reach down and turn that knob to "Alt" when necessary. It's safer for everyone involved.
As a controller in a sometimes very busy D tower, having mode-c is often a big benefit in identifying your aircraft on the control tower radar display.
There are a few different reasons for this:
1) The altitude filters are set to show mode-c for a/c from the surface to 5,000 AGL. If you are flying around without mode-c, it's very hard to tell at a quick glance if your target is actually you, or someone flying overhead above the filter.
2) When you call up 12 miles southwest inbound, I'll glance out that way on the radar, and there are often times numerous a/c in your vicinity. Some of the controllers in the tower will ask you to ident, but I find this often takes 10+ seconds to identify which plane is which. Instead, I will usually (90% of the time), ask you to "say altitude", and use that to get a good guess at who is who.
3) Again, if you call inbound from the southeast, and I have a departure also going southeast, I will have to watch to make sure that isn't a conflict. Pointing out traffic is time consuming and doesn't guarantee that you all won't hit. One of the easiest ways for me to ensure that separation exists is to observe your mode-c as 1200 descending and the departure at 1700 climbing, or something similar. If you don't have mode-c, you suddenly become a traffic conflict for every other aircraft in your vicinity, regardless of altitude.
4) Mode-c equipped aircraft "pop" off the radar screen much more readily. Almost every plane we're working has a little altitude readout next to it. I spend most of my time looking out the window and with binoculars, and only occasionally glance at the radar screen for a second or two, much like an instrument scan in IFR conditions. If yours is the only a/c out there without an altitude readout, it's just naturally going to be harder for me to pick it out.
So yeah, always use your mode-c, and don't get offended if the tower tells you "be advised, not receiving mode-c". We both know the regs say you can legally fly in our airspace without it, but I'm still going to remind you to reach down and turn that knob to "Alt" when necessary. It's safer for everyone involved.
OhioStatePilot
Well-Known Member
Thanks borommakot, I completely missed that in reading it and I'm glad you caught it.
genot
Well-Known Member
Well the book answer is that when you file a flight plan you include an equipment suffix. The suffix letter is printed on the strip and tells the controller basically if you have DME, GPS/RNAV or RVSM equipment as well as if you have mode C, have a transponder without mode C or have no transponder.
In this situation though either the Seneca was just departing and tower was on the ball and helping the radar controller or, thinking hmmmm....a half million dollar airplane, yeah I bet that can spare a couple of grand for a transponder.
Thanks, I don't know why I didn't remember that.:drool:
It was a Seneca that does a ton of flight training from that airport. And the students miss LOTS of stuff. The other day, they came over the hill for some pattern work in a TramaHawk, and flew runway 22 while everyone else was flying 4. Even when the tetraheadon wind socks and traffic all pointed to 4.
I still recite (in my head so my students don't know) "Lights Cmaera Action." And when something is missed, the airplane won't move no matter how high the RPM's get, because I hold the brakes. But the phrasing of the controler made me laugh. "Seneca xxx, turn the x-sponder to the A-L-T setting please." The tone and the way it was said, like, here we go again:crazy:.
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
Another addition to that quote that I learned while flying here in Texas is: 'LCAT'-Lights, Camera, Action, Time-off.
Knowing the time off is pretty important for a number of reasons such as fuel burn, time aloft, etc.
Just somethin else you may want to use.
I'm pretty sure when the transponder is on standby it only gives the aircraft's callsign. So the Seneca must of had been only showing its call sign and nothing else.
LCAT, I use the action as setting the airplane up fot T/O, and writing down the time off. Nice varaint though, I may start using it. Seems like there is a lot of steps for the "action" part.