Missing USMC Hornet
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
No report of a crash? No witnesses? I'm going to have to dig a little bit deeper...
I have a friend that's in VMFA-112....
I have a friend that's in VMFA-112....
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, they found the plane but not the pilot.
Crews locate wreckage of Marine jet in Imperial Valley desert
Crews locate wreckage of Marine jet in Imperial Valley desert
aloft
New Member
Unfortunately, it wasn't the aliens.
What I'm hearing through Civil Air Patrol channels is that the pilot apparently survived the ejection, SARSAT had received a number of "hits" from an active ELT, and that a search of the area after the wreckage was found encountered an intermittent ELT signal, Morse code, and voice transmissions--presumably from the pilot's survival radio. By mid-afternoon the Marines had found nothing and requested CAP assistance. It's not clear to me by whom yet, but the pilot's body was located in the early evening.
Tragic ending to what could have been a happy one. They say that the first 24 hrs of any search are the most critical, and this is a good example of why. Too bad the Marines held off on calling in the CAP "amateurs" until it was too late. Who knows when he would have been found if they'd asked for our help as soon as they knew the jet went down.
What I'm hearing through Civil Air Patrol channels is that the pilot apparently survived the ejection, SARSAT had received a number of "hits" from an active ELT, and that a search of the area after the wreckage was found encountered an intermittent ELT signal, Morse code, and voice transmissions--presumably from the pilot's survival radio. By mid-afternoon the Marines had found nothing and requested CAP assistance. It's not clear to me by whom yet, but the pilot's body was located in the early evening.
Tragic ending to what could have been a happy one. They say that the first 24 hrs of any search are the most critical, and this is a good example of why. Too bad the Marines held off on calling in the CAP "amateurs" until it was too late. Who knows when he would have been found if they'd asked for our help as soon as they knew the jet went down.
Pilot killed in crash was an American Airlines pilot. RIP.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2530390
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2530390
That kinda stuff is frustrating when you get involved in those searches. I turned off 20 or so bogus ELTs set off by bad landings, corroded batteries, thrown in a car trunk, delivered by UPS live, etc. and had one that was an actual accident in my years of searching with CAP. The bad thing is the AFRCC (who ran searches back then, not sure if they still do) had a policy of not contacting CAP til after a couple of passes on Satellite. Which could mean anywhere from 1/2 to 3 hr delay before they made a call. I called in a number of times to report an ELT heard, and they said contact will be made and mission created after a couple of satellite passes. This does change quite quickly when they 'figure out' that the signals they have been getting matches someone that is overdue, but the delay in any case could cost a life.
aloft
New Member
Very interesting that the article makes it seem as if he was killed in the crash, when this is not the case. Somebody's CYA-ing.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
fsiflyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting that the article makes it seem as if he was killed in the crash, when this is not the case. Somebody's CYA-ing.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone
for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am sorry to hear that you are not a fan, but I am a Marine and if it was due to operational arrogance then heads should roll, I fully agree with you. We do have SAR capability as all MEU's are Special Operations Capable and we have dedicated SAR units as well. I am sure they could have pulled a unit out of Camp Pendelton. I am not assigned to that area and I work in intel so I can not speak on what was going on in that area of operations. The death of this pilot and any other is and would be tragic. Makes no difference if he was a Marine or any other branch. If the Marines were (and I do not know if they were the only ones) doing the search I am sure they had reasoning for it...if not I hope someone loses a general star for it but to place a blanket statement like only the Marines are bad or at fault is not appropriate. The Marines have done many great things and no one branch is exempt from making errors. Do not forget it was the Marines SAR capabilities that brought home Captain Scott O'Grady, USAF. He is lucky...the Yugoslavians would not have given him much hospitality.
In anycase, I am not trying to inflame an argument as I agree that if was an error that could have been prevented then lets court martial someone, but please do not spread blame Corps. wide as we work extremely hard to gurantee that the Marines do what we do best. Just my .02.
Very interesting that the article makes it seem as if he was killed in the crash, when this is not the case. Somebody's CYA-ing.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone
for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am sorry to hear that you are not a fan, but I am a Marine and if it was due to operational arrogance then heads should roll, I fully agree with you. We do have SAR capability as all MEU's are Special Operations Capable and we have dedicated SAR units as well. I am sure they could have pulled a unit out of Camp Pendelton. I am not assigned to that area and I work in intel so I can not speak on what was going on in that area of operations. The death of this pilot and any other is and would be tragic. Makes no difference if he was a Marine or any other branch. If the Marines were (and I do not know if they were the only ones) doing the search I am sure they had reasoning for it...if not I hope someone loses a general star for it but to place a blanket statement like only the Marines are bad or at fault is not appropriate. The Marines have done many great things and no one branch is exempt from making errors. Do not forget it was the Marines SAR capabilities that brought home Captain Scott O'Grady, USAF. He is lucky...the Yugoslavians would not have given him much hospitality.
In anycase, I am not trying to inflame an argument as I agree that if was an error that could have been prevented then lets court martial someone, but please do not spread blame Corps. wide as we work extremely hard to gurantee that the Marines do what we do best. Just my .02.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
I used to like you, aloft...
j/k
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
I used to like you, aloft...
j/k
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting that the article makes it seem as if he was killed in the crash, when this is not the case. Somebody's CYA-ing.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone
for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am sorry to hear that you are not a fan, but I am a Marine and if it was due to operational arrogance then heads should roll, I fully agree with you. We do have SAR capability as all MEU's are Special Operations Capable and we have dedicated SAR units as well. I am sure they could have pulled a unit out of Camp Pendelton. I am not assigned to that area and I work in intel so I can not speak on what was going on in that area of operations. The death of this pilot and any other is and would be tragic. Makes no difference if he was a Marine or any other branch. If the Marines were (and I do not know if they were the only ones) doing the search I am sure they had reasoning for it...if not I hope someone loses a general star for it but to place a blanket statement like only the Marines are bad or at fault is not appropriate. The Marines have done many great things and no one branch is exempt from making errors. Do not forget it was the Marines SAR capabilities that brought home Captain Scott O'Grady, USAF. He is lucky...the Yugoslavians would not have given him much hospitality.
In anycase, I am not trying to inflame an argument as I agree that if was an error that could have been prevented then lets court martial someone, but please do not spread blame Corps. wide as we work extremely hard to gurantee that the Marines do what we do best. Just my .02.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the addition of CAP itself would've made a difference or not, hindsight-wise. I do agree in using all available assets in an emergency.
In addition to this, every Marine Corps Air Station has a dedicated base rescue helo detachment. In the case of Yuma, they have dedicated HH-1N Hueys that do local base SAR as well as MAST (Miitary Assistance to Safety and Traffic) missions to assist civilian EMS units at vehicle accidents, etc. Air Stations will have a det of HH-1Ns or HH-46s. You'll notice them with the grey/orange paint jobs and the "RESCUE" markings on them.
USAF used to have base rescue helos (HH-43Fs), but got rid of them in the late 1970s. USAF has dedicated SAR units, but obviously not at every base like the Marines and Navy have.
[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting that the article makes it seem as if he was killed in the crash, when this is not the case. Somebody's CYA-ing.
Flight plans and flight following are great advice for general aviation flying, but the Marine pilot's flight lead knew almost instantly that he'd gone down when he ceased answering radio calls. What killed that guy was the Marine Corps' insistence that they (and ONLY they) do the searching for him until well into the next day, when it was too late. (To my knowledge, the Marines have no dedicated SAR capability, unlike the USAF.) Self-confidence is great, but when it leads to an almost institutional arrogance like it does with the Marines, it's only an impediment to good judgment--right up there with refusing to admit you're lost and asking someone
for directions. Too bad this guy had to pay such a high price for that.
<-- Not a big fan of the Marine Corps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am sorry to hear that you are not a fan, but I am a Marine and if it was due to operational arrogance then heads should roll, I fully agree with you. We do have SAR capability as all MEU's are Special Operations Capable and we have dedicated SAR units as well. I am sure they could have pulled a unit out of Camp Pendelton. I am not assigned to that area and I work in intel so I can not speak on what was going on in that area of operations. The death of this pilot and any other is and would be tragic. Makes no difference if he was a Marine or any other branch. If the Marines were (and I do not know if they were the only ones) doing the search I am sure they had reasoning for it...if not I hope someone loses a general star for it but to place a blanket statement like only the Marines are bad or at fault is not appropriate. The Marines have done many great things and no one branch is exempt from making errors. Do not forget it was the Marines SAR capabilities that brought home Captain Scott O'Grady, USAF. He is lucky...the Yugoslavians would not have given him much hospitality.
In anycase, I am not trying to inflame an argument as I agree that if was an error that could have been prevented then lets court martial someone, but please do not spread blame Corps. wide as we work extremely hard to gurantee that the Marines do what we do best. Just my .02.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the addition of CAP itself would've made a difference or not, hindsight-wise. I do agree in using all available assets in an emergency.
In addition to this, every Marine Corps Air Station has a dedicated base rescue helo detachment. In the case of Yuma, they have dedicated HH-1N Hueys that do local base SAR as well as MAST (Miitary Assistance to Safety and Traffic) missions to assist civilian EMS units at vehicle accidents, etc. Air Stations will have a det of HH-1Ns or HH-46s. You'll notice them with the grey/orange paint jobs and the "RESCUE" markings on them.
USAF used to have base rescue helos (HH-43Fs), but got rid of them in the late 1970s. USAF has dedicated SAR units, but obviously not at every base like the Marines and Navy have.
aloft
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if the addition of CAP itself would've made a difference or not, hindsight-wise. I do agree in using all available assets in an emergency.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not.
But to put it in perspective, the San Diego County Sheriff's office and an unnamed federal agency conducted a test late Sunday afternoon; a "distressed hiker" activated a Personal Locator Beacon--not terribly unlike the F-18 driver's survival radio--on the eastern slope of Mount Palomar. CAP had an aircraft airborne within 30 minutes of the tasking and located the "hiker" 30 minutes later. Here in California, ELT searches are a daily event (and sometimes even more frequent). The result is that we have people who've gotten very, very good at DF'ing (electronically tracking) ELT signals, and some rather sophisticated equipment for doing so. Unfortunately for that particular pilot, Marine Corps territorial pride may have prevented their employment until it was too late.
I don't know if the addition of CAP itself would've made a difference or not, hindsight-wise. I do agree in using all available assets in an emergency.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not.
But to put it in perspective, the San Diego County Sheriff's office and an unnamed federal agency conducted a test late Sunday afternoon; a "distressed hiker" activated a Personal Locator Beacon--not terribly unlike the F-18 driver's survival radio--on the eastern slope of Mount Palomar. CAP had an aircraft airborne within 30 minutes of the tasking and located the "hiker" 30 minutes later. Here in California, ELT searches are a daily event (and sometimes even more frequent). The result is that we have people who've gotten very, very good at DF'ing (electronically tracking) ELT signals, and some rather sophisticated equipment for doing so. Unfortunately for that particular pilot, Marine Corps territorial pride may have prevented their employment until it was too late.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with fsiflyer. If someone in the chain of command screwed up then they need to be dealt with on the UCMJ level. Don't fault all those who are not to blame. I being a former Navy H-46 crewman have done plenty of SAR, training and for real. The Marines have a really good SAR program. I know a lot of the guys. We don't know the whole story. Just what you read in the paper or see in the news or what you hear via the rumor mill or grapevine. I agree, CAP is an oustanding tool for ELT searches and it is a shame that they were not utilized, but that's water under the bridge now. Whoever was out there looking for that pilot did their damndest to find that pilot. The decision making goes on at the flag level, so they should be the ones to pay the price.