Minimum altitude rule question

Tangodelta29

Well-Known Member
So, as I understand it... no lower then 1000 feet over urban areas and no lower then 500 feet over rural or empty areas.

Two or three questions... How low to banner towers fly, and if its lower then 1000 feet, is there an exception to the rule for them?

Maybe I'm thinking of urban and rural areas incorrectly. At what point does an area become densely populated or urban and when is something empty enough for 500 feet flying...

I could be wrong and I know the FAR is probably written differently but I'm just looking for a quick and clear distinction between areas where I can go as low as 500 feet, and areas where I cannot. (not that I'm a fan of 500' flying...)

Much thanks!
 
This is the FAA we are talking about...there are FEW quick and clear rules. This one is especially so! Congested areas should be considered ANY city, regardless of size. There has been violation rulings which said a school campus, and a sports arena were a congested area.

My rule is Any city of any size is 1000' above 2000' horizontal. Rural areas, just a few houses/farms in the area 500'.

The catch all for the FAA is in the event of an engine failure, you must have sufficient altitude as to be able to land without causing harm or injury to person or buildings on the ground. So in San Antonio if you are over downtown, you need to be at 10,000':sarcasm:
 
At what point does an area become densely populated or urban and when is something empty enough for 500 feet flying...

I was taught that any area depicted in yellow on a sectional is considered the "urban" area, all others are rural. I have no idea what critieria is used to designate an urban area, maybe it's population density or building density?

I'm with you though, 500 feet is just too low for standard GA flying. Sure, I can drop down that low if I want to check something out, but I get my butt back up in the air when I'm done.
 
I was taught that any area depicted in yellow on a sectional is considered the "urban" area, all others are rural. I have no idea what critieria is used to designate an urban area, maybe it's population density or building density?

:yeahthat:
 
Over open water or sparsely populated areas there is no set minimum. You must maintain sufficient altitude to land safely in the event of a powerplant failure and remain at least 500' from any person, vessel, or structure.

FAR 91.119 (c)
 
Over open water or sparsely populated areas there is no set minimum. You must maintain sufficient altitude to land safely in the evnt of a powerplant failure and remain at least 500' from any person, vessel, or structure.


:yeahthat:

To add to that...

You can conduct operations over congested areas at less than the minimum altitude, you will just need to have a low-level waiver from the FAA.
 
Over open water or sparsely populated areas there is no set minimum. You must maintain sufficient altitude to land safely in the event of a powerplant failure and remain at least 500' from any person, vessel, or structure.

FAR 91.119 (c)

i use this one a lot :-)

flying thru the desert in NM/AZ/UT is AWESOMMMME. :rawk:
 
I was taught that any area depicted in yellow on a sectional is considered the "urban" area, all others are rural. I have no idea what critieria is used to designate an urban area, maybe it's population density or building density?

Back when I was teaching at the a college they had a NACO representitive come and speak to the class. He said that, first and foremost was that the yellow is actually what it should look like at night with street lights and general city lighting, but it also could be used as saying that area is congested. All the examiners I have talked to have said the same as well.

As for the determination for the congested, sparse and nothing determination on density, That is all up to the FAA when you crash into some house in the middle of farm lands. Always remember though they can get you on careless and wreckless if they can't easily nail you on something else. Best to play it safe and know about the book answers and add your own minimum on top of that.
 
Back when I was teaching at the a college they had a NACO representitive come and speak to the class. He said that, first and foremost was that the yellow is actually what it should look like at night with street lights and general city lighting, but it also could be used as saying that area is congested. All the examiners I have talked to have said the same as well.

As for the determination for the congested, sparse and nothing determination on density, That is all up to the FAA when you crash into some house in the middle of farm lands. Always remember though they can get you on careless and wreckless if they can't easily nail you on something else. Best to play it safe and know about the book answers and add your own minimum on top of that.

Now that you mention it, I do remember the night light outline thing. I'm not crazy about flying low over any area where I couldn't immediately set up an emergency approach for a landing spot within 60 degrees of my heading. Thankfully in AZ, that's like 95% of the state.
 
but it also could be used as saying that area is congested. All the examiners I have talked to have said the same as well.

The law isn't that simple, unfortunately. There are a number of legal interpretations on the issue, and they tend to base their decisions off of NTSB cases. Here's one:

OCT. 3, 1979

PETER N. BASKIN, ESQUIRE

Dear Mr. Baskin

In response to your letter dated August 28, 1979, and subsequent telephone conversation, we offer the following answers to your three questions. The facts on which our interpretations are based are as follows:

A fixed wing aircraft operating at an altitude of 600 feet flew directly over a populated subdivision of Prince William County, Virginia. The subdivision consisted of at least 40 residential homes on one acre lots. While operating in this area, the aircraft made a number of steep turns over one of these houses.

1. What is the interpretation of the term "congested area of a city, town or settlement" as that term is used in Section 91.79(b) of the FARs?

The meaning of the term "congested area" is determined on a case-by-case basis. It first appeared in the Air Commerce Regulations of 1926. No abstract regulatory definition has yet been developed. However, the following guidelines indicate the interpretations of the Civil Aeronautics board (now National Transportation Safety Board) in attempting to give meaning to the term.

a. The purpose of the rule is to provide minimum safe altitudes for flight and to provide adequate protection to persons on the ground. Thus, it distinguishes flight over sparsely settled areas as well as large metropolitan areas from low flying aircraft. Thus, size of the area is not controlling, and violations of the rule have been sustained for operation of aircraft: (i) over a small congested area consisting of approximately 10 houses and a school (Allman, 5 C.A.B. 8 (1940)); (ii) over campus of a university (Tobin, 5 C.A.B. 162, 164(1941); (iii) over a beach area along a highway, and (iv) over a boy's camp where there were numerous people on the docks and children at play on shore.

b. The presence of people is important to the determination of whether a particular area is "congested." Thus, no violation was found in the case of a flight over a large shop building and four one-family dwellings because, in the words of the CAB examiner, "it is not known (to the court) whether the dwellings were occupied." In that case, the area surrounding the buildings was open, flat and semiarid.

c. The term has been interpreted to prohibit overflights that cut the corners of large, heavily congested residential areas.

As made clear in FAR 91.79, the congested area must be an area of a city, town, or settlement.

2. What is the interpretation of the term "sparsely populated areas" as contained in Section 91.79(c)?

While this term is not expressly defined, we can conclude that it is something other than a congested area under Section 91.79(a). A subdivision of at least 40 occupied residential homes on adjacent one acre lots in Price William County, VA, would not be considered a sparsely populated area. Such a subdivision would well constitute a "settlement" under the rule.

3. What is the interpretation of the term "intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude" as contained in Section 91.71? Pursuant to a telephone conversation with Mr. Hamlen on September 7, you stated that your specific question in reference to this term was whether steep turns of 45 deg..- 60 deg.. were acrobatic maneuvers within this definition.

Steep turns of 45 deg...- 60 deg... are not considered to be acrobatic maneuvers so long as they are incident to normal flight; however, climbing steep turns might be. E. E. Basham, Sr., 13 C. A.B. 61, 73.

Please feel free to contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulation and Enforcement Division
Office of the Chief Counsel
 
My thought on this topic would be, the difference between congested area's and rural areas is common sense. Explanation: The FARS are really designed, not to protect the pilot, but to protect the public from us crazy aviators! I believe they keep it vague as to give them a more open door to prosecute if you do something stupid.

Also common sense would denote not wanting to fly down low over an area where there are a lot of people or buildings, where if you experienced an engine failure or some other problem, your only out is into the middle of Mr. Rogers neighborhood.

To answer Tangodeta29's question, banner towers usually fly around 1000 to 1500 ft AGL.

And as for the 500ft thing over rural or sparse area's, it's 500ft away from people or objects like cars or boats. You can technically be like a foot off the deck legally as long as you maintain that 500ft from "stuff". As for the safely being able to land the plane in an engine failure, well.... what are you flying over? haha.

Just remember that the FAA always has the "careless or reckless behavior" card it can pull out if it ever wants to......

Common sense will get ya far!
 
Coastal banner towers usually fly 400'-500' AGL. We had a waiver from the FSDO for 400'. I often saw guys towing below my altitude.

The guys that tow over cities usually fly higher and use larger letters to make them readable.
 
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