Min. Altitude for stall practice

[FlyingFireman]

Hello all,

Quick one here, I hope someone can help me out. I am getting ready for my first solo and taking a written test my instructor is having me complete before we fly today at 1200. One of the questions is what is the minimum altitude stalls can be practiced at. I am pretty sure its 1500 agl, but I can't remember and I am having some trouble finding it in the FAR book. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Mark

 

[surreal1221]

Have a private pilot PTS handy?

 

[jml2992]

I'm not sure it can even be found in the FARs but I know you can find it in the private pilot Practical Test Standards. Additionally, steep turns as well as stalls are to be completed no less than 1500' AGL. Good luck and have fun flying.

 

[Clocks]

I've never seen a regulation that specifies an altitude for stall practice.

However the PTS does say 1500'

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf

Page 1-26

I liked to teach my students to do the maneuvers at/above the altitude in the PTS (although I never taught privates) because in my experience the examiner will often say "show me a power on stall" while you're 1000' above the ground just finishing turns around a point, and he'll expect you to get to the appropriate altitude.

 

[tgrayson]

I am pretty sure its 1500 agl, but I can't remember and I am having some trouble finding it in the FAR book. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Mark

There is no regulation pertaining to stalls, but it would come under the definition of 'aerobatic flight' as defined in 14 CFR 91.303.

(The PTS is irrelevant, since he's not going for a checkride.)

 

[jwp_145]

You can do stalls at whatever altitude you see fit, but for testing purposes, the FAA PPL PTS says that they are to be done no lower than 1500AGL. No keep in mind you could do it below that, you just have to be careful that you don't bust a reg concerning minimum altitude.

 

[FlyingFireman]

Thanks very much guys, I have the PTS open now. I'm still in the phase of figuring out where to find stuff....thanks again!

Mark

 

[Clocks]

There is no regulation pertaining to stalls, but it would come under the definition of 'aerobatic flight' as defined in 14 CFR 91.303.

Are sure about that? Then 91.303 would prohibit you from practicing stalls within 4 nm of an airway.

 

[Milesar]

PTS available HERE

Surreal is teaching you to fish... I'll give you the fish
For your practical exam, you must select an altitude higher than 1500AGL.

For practicing? Your flight school may have a more restrictive figure.

 

[tgrayson]

Are sure about that? Then 91.303 would prohibit you from practicing stalls within 4 nm of an airway.

That would be ON an airway. Reasonable, isn't it?

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."

 

[Clocks]

It sounds reasonable. I've just never heard 91.303 applied to any flight training besides spins before.

 

[tgrayson]

It sounds reasonable. I've just never heard 91.303 applied to any flight training besides spins before.

Note that the section defines "aerobatic" very liberally and specifically limits it to this context; arguably it would apply to steep turns, chandelles, lazy eights, etc. The PTS is likely attempting to adhere to this paragraph.

Has it every led to enforcement action? Dunno.

 

[nosehair]

I am getting ready for my first solo and taking a written test my instructor is having me complete before we fly today at 1200. One of the questions is what is the minimum altitude stalls can be practiced at. I am pretty sure its 1500 agl, but I can't remember and I am having some trouble finding it in the FAR book. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Mark

Hello, Mark.

I hope you are learning some things from the answers on this post, ...however, your question is to general.

As you may have determined, there is no FAA Regulation cocerning minimum altitudes for stalls, and the instructor MAY be looking for the guidance given in the PTS, but mostly, your personal instructor may have given you a higher altitude to practice this maneuver. That is what he is looking for. Nobody on this site can tell you what to answer on a pre-solo exam. That is made up personally by your instructor. He is looking to see if you remember what he told you about that stall practice altitude.

Regulatory altitudes are for certificated pilots to always comply with...forever.

As a student pilot, your instructor may, and should, place higher restrictions on you. That is for and your instructor to know.

I hope this helps.

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

This doesn't exist in any directives I have ever seen. Most flight schools that are half-way organized have set restrictions on what you need to do with their aircraft. Like, no solo students dispatch 2 hours before sunset, etc. I would ask the instructor about his, as you believe this is a restriction that the school has setup and you just cannot seem to find in any FAR/AIM.

The following is a recommendation and nothing more - As a pre-ppl, I would not practice stalls at any altitude below 4000' AGL. One day when you get to spin training, or inadvertently get into a spin, you will notice that you lose 2000' AGL before the third revolution.

So, until you have at least done between 30-50 power-on/power-off stalls, I would factor in a safety altitude cushion. Especially, since these are the first few times that you are going to be in the airplane without an instructor. If you haven't gotten into a spin yet, ask the instructor to demonstrate one for you and watch as he gets into it and then recovers. Talking out how to recover from a spin and actually doing it for the first time are two different things. If he says that he cannot demonstrate one for you....give him a hint the next time you are doing power-on stalls that you just might not keep it coordinated and might need him to bail you out.

 

[PDC]

On whether stalls are aerobatics:

The FAA Chief Counsel has an opinion on this:

Steep turns, approaches to stalls, stalls, unusual attitudes for the purpose of demonstrating recovery procedures..., and emergency descents.... performed during initial pilot training or pilot proficiency training are not considered aerobatics if smoothly executed and not done in a manner causing an abrupt change in attitude. The maneuvers would also not fall into any category involving "an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight" because they are incident to and necessary for normal training flights which are, in fact, normal flights. (6-11-80).

Quoted with ellipses from Kent Jackson's FARs Explained, Part 91 page 146.

 

[tgrayson]

The FAA Chief Counsel has an opinion on this:

Thank you. Here is the full text of the letter:


JUN. 11, 1980

Mr. Ross Nye
Flight Safety International
Greater Wilmington Airport
Wilmington, Delaware 19850

Dear Mr. Nye:

This letter is in response to your letter of March 25, 1980, requesting a legal opinion concerning whether, for purposes of FAR Sec. 91.71, steep turns (45 deg.. - 60 deg.. of bank), approaches to stalls, stalls, unusual attitudes for the purpose of demonstrating recovery procedures with angles of pitch not to exceed 30 deg.. and angles of bank not to exceed 60 deg.., and emergency descents with angles of pitch not exceed 30 deg.. constitute acrobatic flight when performed during the course of initial pilot training or pilot proficiency training.
Intentionally executing a maneuver in an aircraft that exceeds 60 deg.. of bank relative to the horizon or 30 deg.. nose-up or nose-down relative to the horizon is not the standard by which acrobatic flight is defined for purposes of FAR Sec. 91.71, as recognized by the Preamble to Amendment 91-65 to Title 14 of Code of Federal Regulations (FAR Part 91). FAR Sec. 91.71 defines "acrobatic flight" as follows:

"For the purposes of this section, acrobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."

This opinion is limited to the maneuvers described in the first paragraph of this letter, when those maneuvers are smoothly executed and, therefore, do not involve an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude.
The above-referenced maneuvers do not fall into any category involving "an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight," because the attitudes and accelerations involved are incident to and necessary for normal training flights and training flights are in fact normal flights. The maneuvers at issue do not constitute acrobatic flight for the purpose of FAR Sec. 91.71.

Sincerely,

EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[tonyw]

Well, crap.

If having no abrupt change in the aircraft's attitude during a recovery from a stall is a requirement to keep it from being an acrobatic maneuver, I think I busted that reg about a dozen times before I finally got it.

I muscled the airplane down when it was time to recover, until the instructor I had said, you know, you don't have to turn it into a dive, you just have to level out the airplane.:bandit: