Militant Labor Question

TallFlyer said:
One could also make the argument that having a pro business Republican in the White House gives their employer a somewhat better chance of succeeding and growth.
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Which history has disproven, time and time again.

List of airlines to have filed bankruptcy under Republican presidents:

Braniff International - liquidated under Republican Ronald Reagan
Continental Air Lines - bankrupt and nearly liquidated under Republican Ronald Reagan
Eastern Air Lines - liquidated under Republican George H.W. Bush
Pan American World Airways - liquidated under Republican George H.W. Bush
Trans World Airlines - bankrupt and nearly liquidated under Republican George W. Bush
United Airlines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
Northwest Airlines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
Delta Air Lines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
Continental Airlines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
USAirways - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
USAirways - bankrupt again under Republican George W. Bush
Aloha Airlines - bankrupt and liquidated under Republican George W. Bush
American Trans Air - bankrupt and liquidated under Republican George W. Bush
Frontier Airlines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush
Sun Country Airlines - bankrupt under Republican George W. Bush

List of airlines to have filed bankruptcy under Democratic presidents:

American Airlines - bankrupt under Democrat Barack Obama


I think the facts speak for themselves.
 
And how many of those BKs under Dubya were a result of challenges after 9/11? How many of those airlines are still around after their BKs?

And how many of those airlines will continue to exist in their current form if the integrity of the full faith and credit of the United States is undermined by unrestrained government spending, as is more likely by a Democratic President than a Republican?

My underlying point is that your career is affected by far more than the Union policies of a particular administration.
 
TallFlyer said:
And how many of those BKs under Dubya were a result of challenges after 9/11? How many of those airlines are still around after their BKs?

And how many of those airlines will continue to exist in their current form if the integrity of the full faith and credit of the United States is undermined by unrestrained government spending, as is more likely by a Democratic President than a Republican?

My underlying point is that your career is affected by far more than the Union policies of a particular administration.
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That is true, but you're acting as though the union doesn't want the business to succeed. Unions, ALPA in particular, have long lobbied for things that will help the airline industry. Cabotage, the export bank stuff, user fees, etc.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I really never understood how so many pilots can vote for Republicans and then whine about how their union can't get anything done. At least in recent history, despite his treatment of the air traffic controllers Reagan at least let the NMB do its job.
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Voting for one issue over everything else just because it will benefit yourself is quite selfish. Vote for what you think is best for the country, not your wallet.
 
TallFlyer said:
And how many of those BKs under Dubya were a result of challenges after 9/11?
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President Bush had the ability to help these failing carriers (two of which were directly affected by the loss of airplanes and employees in the 9/11 attacks), but he refused to do so. The Air Transport Stabilization Board (ATSB) was created by Congress for the purpose of providing loans to carriers negatively affected by the 9/11 attacks and their economic aftermath. The President's appointees to the ATSB refused to help United Airlines at all, despite repeated applications, and despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many employees in the attacks. In total, only a bit over $1 billion in loans were approved for all of the airlines combined. His stinginess, and the refusal of his Board appointees to help airlines unless their employees took massive cuts to pay, benefits, and work rules, is a clear example of why no one in the airline industry should ever vote for a Republican.

How many of those airlines are still around after their BKs?
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Not really relevant. You posited that the airlines would be better in a business sense under Republican administrations. The facts posted above prove you wrong. The airlines have done far better under Democratic administrations, and labor has done immensely better.

And how many of those airlines will continue to exist in their current form if the integrity of the full faith and credit of the United States is undermined by unrestrained government spending, as is more likely by a Democratic President than a Republican?
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You really should look at the facts. Most of the deficit we're now dealing with wasn't created by a Democrat, it was created by a Republican by the name of George W. Bush. When you spend trillions on useless wars, while refusing to help airlines who lost airplanes and employees in terrorist attacks against this country, it's clear that helping out businesses and their employees isn't really the goal. The goal was massive growth of the military industrial complex, all charged on the people's credit card.

My underlying point is that your career is affected by far more than the Union policies of a particular administration.
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It certainly is, and there is no denying what the facts clearly demonstrate: that our careers have all always been better under Democrats than Republicans.
 
TallFlyer said:
And how many of those BKs under Dubya were a result of challenges after 9/11? How many of those airlines are still around after their BKs?

And how many of those airlines will continue to exist in their current form if the integrity of the full faith and credit of the United States is undermined by unrestrained government spending, as is more likely by a Democratic President than a Republican?

My underlying point is that your career is affected by far more than the Union policies of a particular administration.
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Do you really believe what you just wrote? Your famed republican president, GWB, spent trillions of dollars on wars. Why is it that republicans forget that major spending?
I can only speak for ALPA, but they do not try to run companies into the ground. As spira has said they lobby to make things better for the profession as a whole.
 
ppragman said:
Ok, question here. From what I've read, it seems like the RLA screws pilots over. It seems like the only reason that pilots get screwed over on a regular basis by airline management is that basically, the management has so much time between when the union airs its grievances and when it is possible to strike that most of the time management can essentially dictate ridiculous, unrealistic terms, and by the time arbitration, negotiations and mandatory cooling off periods take place, the ridiculousness has been whittled down to what they wanted in the first place but didn't ask for, no one strikes, because "hey, we're not getting totally screwed," and management wins, and many of the people involved are already gone. Scope is more or less gone, workrules at the regionals essentially suck, and regional flying has eclipsed mainline flying. Pay at the regionals is abysmal from day one, and while it does get better, a US Airways EMB-190 captain is doing much better than a Republic EMB-190 captain. My thesis is that basically, the only reason that the regionals suck, is because you guys can't walk off the job at a moments notice, and management knows it.

So...why do you guys abide by the RLA? I mean, frankly, it seems like an unjust law that basically forces people to work for less than they deserve or get out. I mean, I'd imagine that labor costs would go up for companies if they were constantly an hour away - the time it'd take to rally the troops and vote from iPhone - from a work stoppage. If Pinnacle could have been shut down at a moments notice by its pilots saying, "BURN THIS MOFO TO THE GROUND!!!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!" do you think they would have bid the Delta flying so low? It seems to me that telling management to "piss up a rope, we're walking" and have none of this mediation would give labor immense power over the system. From my external perspective, it seems like the Railway Labor Act basically guarantees that management will have a labor force, and considering that these companies are only looking contract to contract, quarterly report to quarterly report, they can dictate unreasonable terms. Is a bit of "civil disobedience" to make the airline career a good one again?
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The RLA is the price you pay for the right to unionize. The heavily regulated nature of commercial aviation gives a huge advantage to organized labor in the event of self-help. The RLA is what brings balance back to the equation, by making a strike the absolute last resort.
 
amorris311 said:
Do you really believe what you just wrote? Your famed republican president, GWB, spent trillions of dollars on wars. Why is it that republicans forget that major spending?
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Oh, I'm not forgetting that spending at all, but what Democrats like to leave out is that Obama has added the same amount to the national debt in 3 and a half years that it took Bush 8.
 
O&M said:
The RLA is the price you pay for the right to unionize. The heavily regulated nature of commercial aviation gives a huge advantage to organized labor in the event of self-help. The RLA is what brings balance back to the equation, by making a strike the absolute last resort.
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I don't see why we need a right to unionize, I would imagine that the right to freely assemble and the right to free expression covers that.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It certainly is, and there is no denying what the facts clearly demonstrate: that our careers have all always been better under Democrats than Republicans.
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I'll grant that you have a much better grasp of all the facts surrounding that intricacies of the airline business and how politics has affected all that, and I do appreciate your perspective.

That said, I'll stand by my contention that the massive spending advocated by both parties, but primarily those on the left has the potential to be more harmful than any realizes. Having the most ardently pro-labor administration in the White House will do you no good if the government can't function effectively and meet its broader obligations. So sure, Bush was an idiot and Romney is a Capitalist Pig, but if the latter is willing to do the heavy lifting required to get our government back on a fiscally sustainable path then he's the guy that's going to ensure that my remaining 31 years in the industry will be fruitful.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
President Bush had the ability to help these failing carriers (two of which were directly affected by the loss of airplanes and employees in the 9/11 attacks), but he refused to do so. The Air Transport Stabilization Board (ATSB) was created by Congress for the purpose of providing loans to carriers negatively affected by the 9/11 attacks and their economic aftermath. The President's appointees to the ATSB refused to help United Airlines at all, despite repeated applications, and despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many employees in the attacks. In total, only a bit over $1 billion in loans were approved for all of the airlines combined. His stinginess, and the refusal of his Board appointees to help airlines unless their employees took massive cuts to pay, benefits, and work rules, is a clear example of why no one in the airline industry should ever vote for a Republican.



Not really relevant. You posited that the airlines would be better in a business sense under Republican administrations. The facts posted above prove you wrong. The airlines have done far better under Democratic administrations, and labor has done immensely better.



You really should look at the facts. Most of the deficit we're now dealing with wasn't created by a Democrat, it was created by a Republican by the name of George W. Bush. When you spend trillions on useless wars, while refusing to help airlines who lost airplanes and employees in terrorist attacks against this country, it's clear that helping out businesses and their employees isn't really the goal. The goal was massive growth of the military industrial complex, all charged on the people's credit card.



It certainly is, and there is no denying what the facts clearly demonstrate: that our careers have all always been better under Democrats than Republicans.
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I know I will never vote Republican again. It is obvious the Republicans are only interested in supporting families that make >50k. If you are in your first 5 years of a regional, you will definitely appreciate Barack Obama's policies...
 
z987k said:
The only issue that actually does matter is your personal wallet. Everything else is a side show.
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Ok, so when this country is so in hock that it can't borrow any more, or entitlement spending continues to increase to far surpass federal revenues, how is that going to affect your wallet?
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
I know I will never vote Republican again. It is obvious the Republicans are only interested in supporting families that make >50k. If you are in your first 5 years of a regional, you will definitely appreciate Barack Obama's policies...
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That's a great bit of logic is you plan on never making more than 50K.
 
TallFlyer said:
but if the latter is willing to do the heavy lifting required to get our government back on a fiscally sustainable path then he's the guy that's going to ensure that my remaining 31 years in the industry will be fruitful.
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If the people you want are in power, then you won't even have the opportunity of a 31 year career in this industry. Or haven't you noticed how the Republicans want to allow foreign ownership of the airlines? When Aeroflot buys American, who do you think will be doing the international routes out of this country? The Russian pilot who works a part time job on the side as a cab driver to make ends meet (yes, that actually happens in Russia), or the American Airlines pilot who makes $200k, gets more than half the month off, and has a great retirement and benefits package?

And then of course, there's cabotage, which the Republicans have always wanted, and are just waiting for the right opportunity to push through. After foreign ownership is done, this will be their next goal. If you're not familiar, cabotage is the practice of a foreign airline being able to fly domestic routes inside our country. In other words, the aforementioned Aeroflot could be flying from Boston to Miami with Russian pilots. Guess who's out of work then?

Give the Republicans the power, and your career will disappear just like the careers of the longshoremen, the textile industry, the rubber industry, etc. It will all be outsourced, and you'll be left with nothing.

But hey, you'll be left with the good feeling of voting for what you think is in the country's best interest (which is really just what's in the ultra-rich's best interest). I'm sure you'll feel very patriotic while you're waiting to collect your unemployment check. You know, unless the Republicans get their way on that too and cut the benefits so all of you "freeloaders" don't leech off of the ultra-rich. We can't have that, now, can we?
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
I know I will never vote Republican again. It is obvious the Republicans are only interested in supporting families that make >50k. If you are in your first 5 years of a regional, you will definitely appreciate Barack Obama's policies...
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Who's fault is it that the first 5 years of regional pay is so low? If anyone is willing to work for that, then it must be worth it; otherwise no one would put up with getting paid such low wages, for such a high level of responsibilities.

That's part and parcel from partisan politics. The fact people are willing to work for beans like that isn't the fault of Republicans or Democrats.
 
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