MikeD IFR stuff #3

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Here's some stuff I'd just been tested on during an I-Check this week. I still hate checkrides.

1. You line up for takeoff on Runway 4, and your compass reads O45 degrees Your initial clearance was to "fly runway heading". Do you fly 040 degrees or 045 degrees? Wind is 310/25. Do you apply wind correction after takeoff?

2. What is the difference between Type I, Type II, and Type III Spatial D?

3. You are flying along a V-airway and ATC clears you RNAV direct to a waypoint (off airway routing, and you're equipment capable). What is the minimum altitude you can safely fly? How would you tell?

4. What three times is a diverse departure not authorized?

5. ATC issues a descent to you from 15,000 to 9,000 (no PD). Upon commencing the descent, are you authorized any intermediate level-offs without ATC approval?

6. When cleared for a STAR, what are you actually cleared to do (in terms of the STAR itself)?

7. What is ORTCA? Where in the US will you find it, if anywhere?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Wow, good questions as always! It took some serious thought for a few of them because all of my IFR notes are at work, but here's my answers:

1.) I would say that you fly 045 because that is the actual runway heading. The runway numbers are just rounded up or down (and interestingly, they actually change every now and then due to changes in variation- for example CLE used to have 5/23, now its 6/24, and SYR used to have 14/32 and now its 15/33). Also, if tower assigns you to fly runway heading, they do not want you to apply wind correction...after all, its "runway heading."

2.) Hmm, I don't know that I've ever heard S.D. classified into three different types. Is that a military thing, or something I [shouldn't have] missed? If I had to guess, I would say each type has something to do with the "axis" of disorientation. Meaning the three e-tubes in your ears are each aligned with an axis of the aircraft, so I suppose each being disturbed could create its own form of disorientation....But somehow I have a feeling that I'm waaay off.

3.) On Jepp charts theres little green numbers in each "grid" on a low en-route chart. They are the MORA...Minimum Off Route Altitude. (i.e. big 2 little 4 would mean 2400 ft.)

4.) i.) When an obstacle DP is published for a particular runway.
ii.) When unable to climb at least 200 ft./nautical mile
iii.) ???
Yikes, I probably should know these better.


5.) This sounds like a trick question....As far as I know, only if in response to a TCAS RA.

6.) If ATC says, "Cleared for the ABCD3 Arrival" then you are authorized to fly only the routing of the STAR, but the altitude will be assigned by ATC. If they say "Descend via the ABCD3 Arrival" then you are cleared to follow both the routing and the altitudes published in the STAR.

7.) I'm going to guess on this one...Off Route Terrain Clearance Altitude? I don't know that I've ever seen it before though...

Alright, grade away!
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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Wow, good questions as always! It took some serious thought for a few of them because all of my IFR notes are at work, but here's my answers:

1.) I would say that you fly 045 because that is the actual runway heading. The runway numbers are just rounded up or down (and interestingly, they actually change every now and then due to changes in variation- for example CLE used to have 5/23, now its 6/24, and SYR used to have 14/32 and now its 15/33). Also, if tower assigns you to fly runway heading, they do not want you to apply wind correction...after all, its "runway heading."

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Correct, sir. ATC expects you to fly runway heading, whatever that may be, and do not apply a wind correction (as opposed to being in a hold). Apparently, a commonly missed question among many instrument pilots.

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2.) Hmm, I don't know that I've ever heard S.D. classified into three different types. Is that a military thing, or something I [shouldn't have] missed? If I had to guess, I would say each type has something to do with the "axis" of disorientation. Meaning the three e-tubes in your ears are each aligned with an axis of the aircraft, so I suppose each being disturbed could create its own form of disorientation....But somehow I have a feeling that I'm waaay off.

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Yes, I should've specified that Spatial D may be more of a military term. I remembered the general differences, but was wordy in my explanation. The easiest way to describe it, the examiner told me, was the difference with each type had to do with the different facial expression of the pilot as the plane impacts the ground. Type 1 Spatial D is the worst, since it's insidious in onset and unrecognized; the pilot impacts the ground fat/dumb/happy with no realization that anything is wrong, nor any corrective action. Type II Spatial D is where the pilot realizes something is amiss, but either hasn't figured out what corrective action needs to be taken yet, or doesn't yet realize the gravity of the situation. The pilot in this case impacts the ground with a look of concern on his face. Type III Spatial D is the scariest, yet rarest too. Type III SD is where the pilot recognized something is very wrong (instruments don't agree, etc) and each action he attempts to take either is the wron one, or keep the problem the same/makes it worse. Pilot in this case impacts the ground with a look of shear terror on his face.

So there you have it. Sick, I know; yet an accurate description of the three types.


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3.) On Jepp charts theres little green numbers in each "grid" on a low en-route chart. They are the MORA...Minimum Off Route Altitude. (i.e. big 2 little 4 would mean 2400 ft.)

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You would be correct on the grids. However, the grid numbers on the IFR Low Enroute Charts are more accurately known as the OROCA, or Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude. They give you obstacle clearance from both obstacles and terrain within their grid for 1000' in non-mountainous terrain and 2000' in mountainous terrain. They do not guarantee navaid signal nor communication coverage.

[ QUOTE ]

4.) i.) When an obstacle DP is published for a particular runway.
ii.) When unable to climb at least 200 ft./nautical mile
iii.) ???
Yikes, I probably should know these better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Half right. Generally the three times you won't find a diverse departure are a) At an airport located in a mountainous area that can (unless obstacle clearance criteria can be met) b) An airport with no Instrument Approach Procedure. If the airport hsn't been TERPs for approaches, it hasn't been TERPs for departures either. c) When in the "T" section of alternate takeoff minimums, diverse departure is noted as not authorized.

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5.) This sounds like a trick question....As far as I know, only if in response to a TCAS RA.

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I'd forgotten this one too. If cleared for a descent from above 10,000 to an altitude below 10,000 MSL, a momentary level-off to allow the pilot to slow below 250 kts is authorized without ATC approval

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6.) If ATC says, "Cleared for the ABCD3 Arrival" then you are authorized to fly only the routing of the STAR, but the altitude will be assigned by ATC. If they say "Descend via the ABCD3 Arrival" then you are cleared to follow both the routing and the altitudes published in the STAR.

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Correct. To further expand on your answer, if given "Descend via..." you must also adhere to all crossing and speed restrictions of the STAR, if any. Also, when changing frequencies, advise the new frequency on check-in what you're doing. IE- "Center, Lear 28A, out of 16,000 descending via the Karlo Six".

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7.) I'm going to guess on this one...Off Route Terrain Clearance Altitude? I don't know that I've ever seen it before though...


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Again correct. ORTCAs tie in with OROCAs. The OROCAs are found on the IFR Low Enroute Charts and provide obstruction clearance as previously explained. ORTCAs are only found outside the United States and, as their name implies, give terrain clearance only of 3000' feet. The reason ORTCAs are found outside the US is that the FAA/NIMA know they cannot keep maps of areas outside the US current (CHUMed) via the monthly CHUM, or CHart Update Manual, like they can in the US. CHUM is put out monthly and is a publication that advises of new obstacles built, new map names, etc; any changes that need to be made to a chart. Since there can be no confirmation of new obstacles on charts outside the US and terrain rarely changes, the feds figure that a 3000' buffer is sufficient to keep one clear of any obstacles that could "pop-up" or be built. Hence the ORTCA that guarantees terrain clearance only and is found outside the US only.

Thanks for participating..............
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
GREAT STUFF, MikeD!!!

Keep `em coming whenever you think of them! Learnin' something all the time and lovin' it!!

MUCH thanks!!
R2F
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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GREAT STUFF, MikeD!!!

Keep `em coming whenever you think of them! Learnin' something all the time and lovin' it!!

MUCH thanks!!
R2F

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Glad people find the info worthwhile; be it new info, or just a review. Makes taking the time to post it worthwhile.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'd forgotten this one too. If cleared for a descent from above 10,000 to an altitude below 10,000 MSL, a momentary level-off to allow the pilot to slow below 250 kts is authorized without ATC approval


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Thats exactly why I thought it might be a trick question. But its sort of a Catch-22. If you don't level off to slow down, you might violate 91.117 for the speed, but if you do level off you could violate 91.123 (compliance w/ ATC clearances and instructions). I just figured that if speed was an issue, you would just have to ask for an ammended clearance to include a leveloff at 10k. I believe you, but I just looked and didnt see any stipulations allowing a leveloff...is that just an understanding between ATC and pilots flying fast airplanes, or did I miss something?
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd forgotten this one too. If cleared for a descent from above 10,000 to an altitude below 10,000 MSL, a momentary level-off to allow the pilot to slow below 250 kts is authorized without ATC approval


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats exactly why I thought it might be a trick question. But its sort of a Catch-22. If you don't level off to slow down, you might violate 91.117 for the speed, but if you do level off you could violate 91.123 (compliance w/ ATC clearances and instructions). I just figured that if speed was an issue, you would just have to ask for an ammended clearance to include a leveloff at 10k. I believe you, but I just looked and didnt see any stipulations allowing a leveloff...is that just an understanding between ATC and pilots flying fast airplanes, or did I miss something?

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I'll have to find the reference for you.

Of course, one could just fan the speed brakes some more too.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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Ah, nevermind. I found it in the AIM (4-4-9d). Guess I should have looked there before! Doh!


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Very good. You beat me to it! Notice it's one of those hidden last-sentence-of-the-paragraph type of deals.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
MikeD
I am sitting in my office at the airport and 2 A-10's (UGLY Call Sign) have just done 2 ILS patterns, in loose formation. I understand that on your instrument check rides the examiner flies your wing as you fly the practical portion of the check ride, being the A-10 is single seat. Does the examiner radio you to give yourself an engine malfunction for a single engine ILS? Interesting challenges. I knew an Air Guard A-10 pilot giving an instrument check to another and didn't advance power correctly on the break and stalled the airplane, pancaked in and died, my Commander's son watched it happen.

Great questions to get the gears going again, thanks. Even as an examiner I need to get into the books, as I would have been doing some serious tap dancing on some of thses questions. I absoulutely love the 3 levels of spatial D and with your permission I am going to use the analogy in my presentations on that subject. Well now that my brain hurts, I must go fly.
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
MikeD, have you ever thought about running for govenor in the state of California..you might actually stand a chance...On amore serious not, love the IFR questions, keep 'em coming...
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
MikeD
I am sitting in my office at the airport and 2 A-10's (UGLY Call Sign) have just done 2 ILS patterns, in loose formation. I understand that on your instrument check rides the examiner flies your wing as you fly the practical portion of the check ride, being the A-10 is single seat. Does the examiner radio you to give yourself an engine malfunction for a single engine ILS? Interesting challenges. I knew an Air Guard A-10 pilot giving an instrument check to another and didn't advance power correctly on the break and stalled the airplane, pancaked in and died, my Commander's son watched it happen.

Great questions to get the gears going again, thanks. Even as an examiner I need to get into the books, as I would have been doing some serious tap dancing on some of thses questions. I absoulutely love the 3 levels of spatial D and with your permission I am going to use the analogy in my presentations on that subject. Well now that my brain hurts, I must go fly.

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650,

Yup, the examiner chases you on the approaches. In fact, in order to log simulated instrument in the A-10, your approaches have to be chased. The examiner will fly along with you on the approaches after getting in formation and getting a comparison-check of airspeed/altimeter. Then they sit back and be....well......standard-issue jerk examiners!

I remember the Air Guard accident you're talking about. Examinee landed out of a chased approach. Examiner went around, pulled closed and stalled the jet in the pattern, killing himself.

The sick and twisted side of me wonders if the examinee was considered to have passed the ride.

I agree, always to grease the wheels again with info that one may have forgotten, which is why I present what I do, since I'm always using most all the info.

And have at the Spatial D scenarios. If it helps people remember it, then all the better....sick aspects of it aside.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
Mike D, that really is some great gouge. Alot of people don't really dig GA IFR ops, especially single pilot/single engine stuff. I think alot of the reason may be that it's easy to become overloaded with information, and the decisions that you have to make at the spur of the moment...I think that knowing as much as you can is one of the keys!!!! Keep It Comming!!!
 
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