Mig-21/Cheyenne mid-air near PRC
- Thread starter SteveC
- Start date
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Rip 
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Didn't anyone learn from that Senator crash many years back?
Good lord people. If you can't formation fly, please don't try what this pilot did.
Good lord people. If you can't formation fly, please don't try what this pilot did.
Preliminarily, it appears the midair happened during what's commonly known as a "BD check" or Battle Damage check, or crossunder. This is a manuever whereby one can check underneath another aircraft in formation for any damage, leaks, etc. Though called a crossunder, the name is somewhat a misnomer. Even though you're crossing from one side of an airplane to the other, the most important thing that needs to be accomplished is to maintain nose-tail separation. Initially (minus the photography session), this accident appears to be similiar to the Piper PA-60 Aerostar/Bell 412SP midair that killed Senator John Heinz on 4 April 1991 over Merrion, Pennsylvania.
As an accident investigator myself, one of the first things I'd look at in this accident is the formation training and experience of the two crews involved. A close second would be how well this flight was briefed, not only the meat of the mission, but the elements of formation operations specific to dissimiliar aircraft types. Just because this was a air-air photo op doesn't necessarily mean either of the crews had specific formation training....we don't know if this was an amateur operation or a professional one. And in any event, we don't know how well it was briefed, or what formation contingencies (non-normal ops) were covered in said brief. Even if these were good to go, it could be as simple as pilot error during the maneuver due to inattention or mis-focused attention. All these things are what should, and I imagine will, be investigated. I personally will not fly formation with another pilot that hasn't been trained in such. I'm not talking flying in the vicinity of another aircraft (though that shouldbe briefed as well), I'm talking route formation and closer. Even with the training, a good pre-brief is imperitive so that both crews are "on the same page" on what's going on in the flight, and a good formation flight pre-brief should ideally allow the entire mission to be flown "comm out" if need be, since both crews will know what's happening at any given time during the flight, and any communication needed can be accomplished via hand signal(s).
Regarding formation flight itself, I DO NOT reccomend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.
Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot?
These are just but a few, among many questions that pilots undertaking formation flight MUST know, at a minimum. If ANY incident arises from pilots performing formation flight who haven't been trained in same, the FAA will have an easy case to justify suspending, or possibly revoking, the pilot's certificate under the 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation.
As an accident investigator myself, one of the first things I'd look at in this accident is the formation training and experience of the two crews involved. A close second would be how well this flight was briefed, not only the meat of the mission, but the elements of formation operations specific to dissimiliar aircraft types. Just because this was a air-air photo op doesn't necessarily mean either of the crews had specific formation training....we don't know if this was an amateur operation or a professional one. And in any event, we don't know how well it was briefed, or what formation contingencies (non-normal ops) were covered in said brief. Even if these were good to go, it could be as simple as pilot error during the maneuver due to inattention or mis-focused attention. All these things are what should, and I imagine will, be investigated. I personally will not fly formation with another pilot that hasn't been trained in such. I'm not talking flying in the vicinity of another aircraft (though that shouldbe briefed as well), I'm talking route formation and closer. Even with the training, a good pre-brief is imperitive so that both crews are "on the same page" on what's going on in the flight, and a good formation flight pre-brief should ideally allow the entire mission to be flown "comm out" if need be, since both crews will know what's happening at any given time during the flight, and any communication needed can be accomplished via hand signal(s).
Regarding formation flight itself, I DO NOT reccomend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.
Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot?
These are just but a few, among many questions that pilots undertaking formation flight MUST know, at a minimum. If ANY incident arises from pilots performing formation flight who haven't been trained in same, the FAA will have an easy case to justify suspending, or possibly revoking, the pilot's certificate under the 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation.
I_WANNA_BE_ATP
New Member
On a side note, did anyone notice that one of the sponsers is Jet U ??
Tragic loss, RIP
Tragic loss, RIP
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Probably too soon as it just occured today. You know with respect to family begin notified first. Info will probably come out later this week(end).
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Okay...I'm no expert. But should a Piper be trying to get under a jet if for any reason? Wake turbulance and all that you know. Yea the MIG could put it "• out" (Vso). But then wake turbulance would be more prevalent in that case. Since wake turbulance is more insidious when slow/dirty,clean etc. that and it flows down and back/out...
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I fly battle damage checks every day in fighters and trainers, and there is no problem with wake turbulence if the crossunder is done correctly. As another poster mentioned, the aircraft should have plenty of nose/tail separation hotizontally, and be well below the slipstream vertically.
The Piper should have been able to accomplish the BD check with no issues.
fish314
Well-Known Member
yeah, we do them it the tweets, too. ( <---See the avatar). And nose-tail separation is a BIG deal. There is a warning in the air-refueling manual for tankers (KC-135's) that says something along the lines of:
"Two airplanes flying in close veritical proximity is inherently dangerous due to a low pressure area resulting between the two aircraft that tends to move them together".
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I was a Tweet student at KCBM back in '99....Fairchild flight in the 37th, which then moved to the 41st when it stood up, and subsequently became Doolittle Flight after I moved over to the 50th.The Tweet's a fun little jet...I'd love to own one privately.
Effing A! The people I know that own MiG's live in Washington State...
Fortunately, the Mig was ok, but the Cheyenne didn't make it.
Cheyenne was owned by an LLC: