Midwest Airlines to ground 717s in November

[surreal1221]

So, in all seriousness. . .

When you escape the passenger world for the cargo world - how does scope work now?

Or, is it not an issue?

 

[sopdan]

My employer didn't choose to do anything as far as acquisition of aircraft. NWA bought the aircraft (with first class seating) before they bought my company after a sham bankruptcy, and made a deal with MAIR. DAL didn't come into the picture until a bit later, for the record.

I still agree that it's an ominous trend. With the inevitable loss of our Saab fleet, there is a lot riding on changing our blended FO rate... IMO the company has no leg to stand on when all we will be flying is RJs.

And before I get accused of bringing the industry down... we are leading the industry in Saab pay (and on par with AE when they still had Saabs)... while still under concessionary pay.

 

[Polar742]

So, in all seriousness. . .

When you escape the passenger world for the cargo world - how does scope work now?

Or, is it not an issue?

Scope is HUGE.

A 121 operation is a 121 operation.

And the way my company is structured, the RAH scope and the whole RAH set up applies pretty well.

Oh, scope is HUGE.

 

[Polar742]

My employer didn't choose to do anything as far as acquisition of aircraft. NWA bought the aircraft (with first class seating) before they bought my company after a sham bankruptcy, and made a deal with MAIR. DAL didn't come into the picture until a bit later, for the record.

I still agree that it's an ominous trend. With the inevitable loss of our Saab fleet, there is a lot riding on changing our blended FO rate... IMO the company has no leg to stand on when all we will be flying is RJs.

And before I get accused of bringing the industry down... we are leading the industry in Saab pay (and on par with AE when they still had Saabs)... while still under concessionary pay.

I'm well aware of Mesaba's position in the industry. They even had a top-of-the line contract when Bedford positioned them with the Avros and SAABS. And the AVROs had seats taken out too!!

So if it was done at Mesaba under his watch, it can be done at RAH.

...and if you know anything about me from my posts, you know that I'm not about calling people out for "dragging the industry down". However, I do strongly encourage EVERYONE to do what they can to improve their pilot group's position, even if it just means paying attention and voting on union issues, or not moving airplanes that shouldn't be moved, or just working on improving your professionalism.

 

[surreal1221]

Scope is HUGE.

A 121 operation is a 121 operation.

And the way my company is structured, the RAH scope and the whole RAH set up applies pretty well.

Oh, scope is HUGE.

I guess I'll just have to read about it then. :bandit:

 

[Polar742]

I guess I'll just have to read about it then. :bandit:

Apparently I only read/responded to part of what you asked. Sorry about that.

Scope works just like it does in the pax world. The current scope at my company was set up to protect our flying in the similar manner a "mainline" scope would be set up, as we were a scheduled operation.

Now the company is a ACMI operation, which equates +/- in the pax world as Fee-for-Departure flying. Both of which are wet leases. So the scope needs to transform to focus on the "holding company" issues, much in the same light the RAH scope did in 2003.


Oh, scope is still HUGE.

 

[sopdan]

I'm well aware of Mesaba's position in the industry. They even had a top-of-the line contract when Bedford positioned them with the Avros and SAABS. And the AVROs had seats taken out too!!

Very well. Then don't try to misrepresent it as you did in your earlier post.

Your employer chose to take 10 seats out.

 

[Polar742]

Very well. Then don't try to misrepresent it as you did in your earlier post.

Uh, it wasn't misrepresented. An 86 seat airplane has 76 seats in it.

10 are taken out.

Your employer did it. Perhaps it was a customer request, perhaps not...

 

[surreal1221]

Apparently I only read/responded to part of what you asked. Sorry about that.

Scope works just like it does in the pax world. The current scope at my company was set up to protect our flying in the similar manner a "mainline" scope would be set up, as we were a scheduled operation.

Now the company is a ACMI operation, which equates +/- in the pax world as Fee-for-Departure flying. Both of which are wet leases. So the scope needs to transform to focus on the "holding company" issues, much in the same light the RAH scope did in 2003.


Oh, scope is still HUGE.

Thanks, a little better. Still have some questions, but it'll be something I'll have to either bug you about in the future or tap the shoulder of TonyC elsewhere on the internet.

I understand scope is huge, as it should.

Would you say scope - in the cargo realm, is different at your company (or any ACMI company) versus that of UPS or FedEx? I recognize the difference between operating under a holding company, but I suppose what is really running through my mind is something that I can't necessarily type efficiently to get my point or question across.

Question really centers around how ACMI and, to a certain extent, UPS and FedEx protect the amount of freight they are moving from the daily fluctuations in shipping costs or from having freight moved out from under them to another competitor. Further, if there is a set minimum load that has to go and is there a maximum load that could ever be sent off property to be flown by another company - inside or outside - the holding company's umbrella. Might not make sense what I'm asking, and if it doesn't don't worry. . .I'll try to find a better way of asking it tomorrow after I've slept for a little while.

 

[sopdan]

Uh, it wasn't misrepresented. An 86 seat airplane has 76 seats in it.

10 are taken out.

Your employer did it. Perhaps it was a customer request, perhaps not...

Again... wasn't my employer that did it. Customer request, or not.

 

[Polar742]

Thanks, a little better. Still have some questions, but it'll be something I'll have to either bug you about in the future or tap the shoulder of TonyC elsewhere on the internet.

I understand scope is huge, as it should.

Would you say scope - in the cargo realm, is different at your company (or any ACMI company) versus that of UPS or FedEx? I recognize the difference between operating under a holding company, but I suppose what is really running through my mind is something that I can't necessarily type of efficiently to get my point or question across.

You can ask...it's fine...maybe start a scope thread

 

[surreal1221]

Sorry man, I added some more text to the quote.

I'm horrible about that.

 

[bike21]

and pilots from other carriers are bashing the RAH pilots and not supporting them.

I have been having this same conversation with a good buddy of mine at SouthernJets. He is very fired up about this whole thing and is rather pissed at RAH guys.

The thing is, we have a mutual friend who is at RAH and bid the new 190 Denver domicile to get back home and was just fine accepting the FO pay rate for what it is. So...

A little background in the likely event you don't know me, since I don't post here too often these days I am commuter as well and can't stand commuting. IMHO it is the devil and a colossal waste of time and I can't wait until the day I no longer commute or perhaps quit the industry if I suspect I will never be based home again. Currently my company has rampant rumors about a certain new airplane that could very well be based at my home domicile IF it ever came to fruition. That said, I have already stated that I would not bid for said mystical aircraft unless it was at a certain pay level even if it meant I still had to commute to reserve. I have drawn a line for myself to help stop the slide to the bottom.

Stay with me here...

So, our mutual friend at RAH didn't seemingly care about this factor at all. All he wanted was the DEN base and that is that. On the one hand I can completely empathize with him on the other I have to call a spade a spade. I am at a bit of a personal crossroads here.

All that said, I have been trying to do some damage control with my buddy at SouthernJets and have asked him not to judge the entire pilot group and wait to see how negotiations and grievances pan out. I am trying to be a neutral observer here, but the RAH guys can see the implied stigma they are facing.

I myself will not cast any stones as my own company has slid some shady stuff by as well, but on face value it does not help RAH guys one bit when stories like this come out and knee jerk reactions from others within our industry are conceived.

I fully support my brothers & sisters at RAH but it is up to those of you who 'get it' to recoginze you have an uphill battle on multiple fronts and MUST educate your own from within. We have our battles here as well, so you are not alone.

Good luck ya'll.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I have been having this same conversation with a good buddy of mine at SouthernJets. He is very fired up about this whole thing and is rather pissed at RAH guys.

The thing is, we have a mutual friend who is at RAH and bid the new 190 Denver domicile to get back home and was just fine accepting the FO pay rate for what it is. So...

A little background in the likely event you don't know me, since I don't post here too often these days I am commuter as well and can't stand commuting. IMHO it is the devil and a colossal waste of time and I can't wait until the day I no longer commute or perhaps quit the industry if I suspect I will never be based home again. Currently my company has rampant rumors about a certain new airplane that could very well be based at my home domicile IF it ever came to fruition. That said, I have already stated that I would not bid for said mystical aircraft unless it was at a certain pay level even if it meant I still had to commute to reserve. I have drawn a line for myself to help stop the slide to the bottom.

Stay with me here...

So, our mutual friend at RAH didn't seemingly care about this factor at all. All he wanted was the DEN base and that is that. On the one hand I can completely empathize with him on the other I have to call a spade a spade. I am at a bit of a personal crossroads here.

All that said, I have been trying to do some damage control with my buddy at SouthernJets and have asked him not to judge the entire pilot group and wait to see how negotiations and grievances pan out. I am trying to be a neutral observer here, but the RAH guys can see the implied stigma they are facing.

I myself will not cast any stones as my own company has slid some shady stuff by as well, but on face value it does not help RAH guys one bit when stories like this come out and knee jerk reactions from others within our industry are conceived.

I fully support my brothers & sisters at RAH but it is up to those of you who 'get it' to recoginze you have an uphill battle on multiple fronts and MUST educate your own from within. We have our battles here as well, so you are not alone.

Good luck ya'll.

Well said. As for your buddy, everyone has their priorities and everyone has a price. If it means being at home with his or her family everynight then I can't begrudge him for chosing that path. I think everyone here knows that the pay rates are crappy. Just because there are guys flying that plane doesn't mean that those guys aren't just as determined to fight for the pay and contract we all know we deserve. I think we all realize that this is going to be one of the hardest fought battles any of us have ever faced. I have no problem admitting that we are dragging the industry down right now and I want the pay and QOL increases much more than any of the anti-RAH keyboard commandos. But what pisses us off is that everyone trys to blame us pilots when we had nothing to do with this. We showed up to work one day and were told we would be flying 190s and buying major airlines. And to top it off the mainline planes will have a seat removed so that we have no legal recourse as to increasing our pay. But we continue to goto work, get denied jumpseats, get called scabs, have bags stolen out of hotel vans by other crews all because of what? Because we chose to work at a regional that started buying airlines and bigger planes? The industry sould breath a small sigh of relief because of the fact that we happened to be in negotiations when this all went down.

 

[Airdale]

Well said. As for your buddy, everyone has their priorities and everyone has a price. If it means being at home with his or her family everynight then I can't begrudge him for chosing that path. I think everyone here knows that the pay rates are crappy. Just because there are guys flying that plane doesn't mean that those guys aren't just as determined to fight for the pay and contract we all know we deserve. I think we all realize that this is going to be one of the hardest fought battles any of us have ever faced. I have no problem admitting that we are dragging the industry down right now and I want the pay and QOL increases much more than any of the anti-RAH keyboard commandos. But what pisses us off is that everyone trys to blame us pilots when we had nothing to do with this. We showed up to work one day and were told we would be flying 190s and buying major airlines. And to top it off the mainline planes will have a seat removed so that we have no legal recourse as to increasing our pay. But we continue to goto work, get denied jumpseats, get called scabs, have bags stolen out of hotel vans by other crews all because of what? Because we chose to work at a regional that started buying airlines and bigger planes? The industry sould breath a small sigh of relief because of the fact that we happened to be in negotiations when this all went down.

+1

If 190's showed up at a PHL base, sorry but I'd bid it to drive to and from work and spend more time with my wife. Because whether people bid the 190 or not, the company WILL staff the airplane. They will displace. And eventually, when the new contract comes out and the 190 pay is good, you'd be stuck in another base when you could have been driving to work.

+2

I am incredibly outraged by the treatment to RAH pilots from other pilot groups. I was called a scab for the first time....and if I wasn't heading to a flight I had to work, I'd of followed the guy outside the terminal. It takes a LOT of nerve to say that to someone's face...a LOT.

You don't have to like RAH...thats fine. But just remember who you're calling scabs and acting like a child towards...because you never know WHO will be sitting across from you at your next interview or who's jumpseat you will be hoping to ride to get home.

The more and more outrage from other pilot groups, the more and more I could care less about anybody outside the RAH pilot list. The Frontier pilots have been incredibly friendly and I see a great relationship forming between F9 and Republic...the Midwest pilots, I could care less. In fact, I hope the majority of them don't come work here. The lack of professionalism and maturity from a number of Midwest pilots is pathetic. Your former employer signed the deal to park your planes...RAH bought the brand. Get over it.

 

[bike21]

As I said before, you guys have my support so don't view this as an attack on you or the RAH pilot group, but I feel I need to point a few things out. And hopefully we can learn from each others collective mistakes.

And eventually, when the new contract comes out and the 190 pay is good

So where is the line drawn then? As I am sure you are aware, there are no guarantees. SkyWest pilots did the same thing back in 2003 with allowing the 700s to come on property for 50 seat pay. It took years of 'negotiations' to finally get our BHO which is a complete joke. With RAH management already pulling the incredibly shady move in MELing one seat, what makes the pilot group think they can land good rates if management sees there are pilots willing to bid for the E190 now as is? Learn from us and make them displace you to the E190. We lost a lot of leverage (not that we have much to begin with) when our pilots were willing to use the same justification of 'make it happen now, negotiate later'. We dealt our ace and never got it back.

I am incredibly outraged by the treatment to RAH pilots from other pilot groups. I was called a scab for the first time....

That has to sting no doubt. But look inward and ask yourself why were you outraged so much? Why the need to feel so defensive? No doubt the negative treatment is childish and un-called for but apparently it struck a nerve for a reason. Don't let it get to you and be proactive to fix this situation.

The more and more outrage from other pilot groups, the more and more I could care less about anybody outside the RAH pilot list.

Our collective managements are doing their jobs well. Divide and conquer. Time for a National Seniority List and ONE union methinks. We are our own worst enemy if not united.

...the Midwest pilots, I could care less. In fact, I hope the majority of them don't come work here. The lack of professionalism and maturity from a number of Midwest pilots is pathetic. Your former employer signed the deal to park your planes...RAH bought the brand. Get over it.

Imagine yourself in their shoes. A good airline, seniority and careers gone in a flash. With a National Seniority List this scenario wouldn't be as dire, but it isn't the case. These poor pilots are on the street after their management sold them out with little repercussion (sound familiar?) While I agree it is not the RAH pilot groups fault, it is naive to believe that RAH management didn't have some say in helping the mainline guys out the door. While I can't prove it, from an objective viewpoint it wasn't on accident either.

Again, not trying to stir the pot but I think we all need to look at the big picture and make the decision that labor has had enough. We have given too much for far too little in return. Sooner or later we collectively need to decide enough is enough.

 

[falconvalley]

My argument is that not bidding it wouldn't exactly send a message to the company. Has there ever been a time when this happened and the entire pilot group successfully did not bid a seat? It would result in a displacement. If you actually care to make a note of the folks that put a bid in, remember they all have their reasons (QOL, cynicism, SJS, etc...) There's a better way to fight the battle. Not bidding a seat to make a point may not only have a chance at screwing you for your entire career QOL-wise, it could have ironic implications.

 

[Airdale]

So where is the line drawn then? As I am sure you are aware, there are no guarantees. SkyWest pilots did the same thing back in 2003 with allowing the 700s to come on property for 50 seat pay. It took years of 'negotiations' to finally get our BHO which is a complete joke. With RAH management already pulling the incredibly shady move in MELing one seat, what makes the pilot group think they can land good rates if management sees there are pilots willing to bid for the E190 now as is? Learn from us and make them displace you to the E190. We lost a lot of leverage (not that we have much to begin with) when our pilots were willing to use the same justification of 'make it happen now, negotiate later'. We dealt our ace and never got it back.

You tell me, where is the line drawn? Should I just get up and walk off the job? Do you think the remaining 2,000+ pilots would follow me?

I mean seriously, all the RAH haters need to get real. The planes are here...what do we do? Negotiate a new CBA seems the only option. I'm not happy about our wages and I'm not happy about putting the Midwest guys on the street, but I'll be damned if I'm going to go on a lone crusade and walk off the job...not unless any of you have another job waiting?......didn't think so.

That has to sting no doubt. But look inward and ask yourself why were you outraged so much? Why the need to feel so defensive? No doubt the negative treatment is childish and un-called for but apparently it struck a nerve for a reason. Don't let it get to you and be proactive to fix this situation.

Easy, because the term SCAB does not apply to our pilot group. It angers me to hear it because I didn't send Bedford a letter asking to buy Midwest. I didn't ask for the Midwest name...I could care less. The company should have just gone under as far as I'm concerned...but the Midwest pilots didn't have the balls to walk off the job to stop from being outsourced, so who is the hypocrite? They want to throw stones about how we're job stealers...well...it seems they lacked the sacks to shove it up their CEO's ass and let the company die. Not my fault.

Our collective managements are doing their jobs well. Divide and conquer. Time for a National Seniority List and ONE union methinks. We are our own worst enemy if not united.

They're just doing their jobs, its the pilots that don't get along. Or better yet, you have a large group of educated "aviators" that are dumber than a box of cheerios concerning the economy and business 101.

Imagine yourself in their shoes. A good airline, seniority and careers gone in a flash. With a National Seniority List this scenario wouldn't be as dire, but it isn't the case. These poor pilots are on the street after their management sold them out with little repercussion (sound familiar?) While I agree it is not the RAH pilot groups fault, it is naive to believe that RAH management didn't have some say in helping the mainline guys out the door. While I can't prove it, from an objective viewpoint it wasn't on accident either.

Hey man, if Bedford sold us down the river tomorrow and contracted our jobs out to Mesa, I'd be pissed. But not at Mesa...not at the Mesa pilots. I'd be pissed at Bedford....Republic.

 

[bike21]

My argument is that not bidding it wouldn't exactly send a message to the company. Has there ever been a time when this happened and the entire pilot group successfully did not bid a seat? It would result in a displacement. If you actually care to make a note of the folks that put a bid in, remember they all have their reasons (QOL, cynicism, SJS, etc...) There's a better way to fight the battle. Not bidding a seat to make a point may not only have a chance at screwing you for your entire career QOL-wise, it could have ironic implications.

A valid point to be sure, but doesn't it send a message of perhaps veiled acceptance to management? Given the same choice I had illustrated earlier with my buddy at RAH, I can say it wouldn't be an easy one. I think I made pretty clear my disdain for commuting. So again, I won't judge.

Just really trying to point out that sooner or later, somehow we will all have to draw the line. But many before me have said that before as well. We are still nowhere close. My own pilot group failed miserably last time we had the chance to step up.

Ugh. Good luck and good night

 

[kellwolf]

My argument is that not bidding it wouldn't exactly send a message to the company. Has there ever been a time when this happened and the entire pilot group successfully did not bid a seat? It would result in a displacement. If you actually care to make a note of the folks that put a bid in, remember they all have their reasons (QOL, cynicism, SJS, etc...) There's a better way to fight the battle. Not bidding a seat to make a point may not only have a chance at screwing you for your entire career QOL-wise, it could have ironic implications.

I don't know what the displacement benefits are in the RAH contract, but even here at PCL, it's EXPENSIVE for the company to displace people. In addition to the training costs, the company is paying for hotel expenses, 24/7 per diem, moving expensive and some other side benefits in our contract. It's why when there IS a displacement around here, it's normally NOT the junior guys that get displaced. Senior commuters will normally volunteer in place of the junior guys to cash in. The CA displacement to ATL went INSANELY senior. I think the most junior guy in MEM that got displaced was in the top 10% of the company seniority list. It's not just "making a point," it's costing the company more than if people just volunteered for it. Here, if you straight up bid on a vacancy, the most you're gonna get is days off to move and a bit of per diem.