MH17 Crash- Investigation reconstruction and conclusion

B

bp

Well-Known Member
Dutch investigators conclusion film for their investigation into the crash of MH17. Reconstruction of recovered airframe parts reveals impact pattern of preformed ferrous objects penetrating aircraft skin, and found in flight crew's bodies with traces of aluminum and glass (supporting theory of exterior explosion).
No anomalies found in flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder.

Pretty damning evidence, wonder what will become of it...

 
Cptnchia said:
Well, if Putin is in anyway involved, he'll just tell the West to suck it, and no one will stand up to him.
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Exactly. If Palestinians had shot down a western aircraft (or especially an Israeli one), there would have been swift secret executions of the perpetrators going all the way up to who had knowledge of the attack. But Putin and his warlords can shoot down a 777 jetliner and Putin can use Russia's veto power to say NO to an international tribunal for MH17. Now that is unfrickinbelievable.

It's unfortunate for the victims that the airline was an Asian country like Malaysia. Things might have been interesting if it was Air China, for instance. Or El Al. Holy cow would the Mossad have carried out swift revenge/justice. Or it may not have happened, considering El Al aircraft have missile countermeasures.
 
mshunter said:
Am I the only one who still thinks "WTF were they doing flying over an active warzone, where other airplanes had been shot down recently?"
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Most shootdowns are lower-level with MANPAD-type weapons. Their range is limited altitude-wise to about 10,000-12,000 feet. But on July 14th once they shot an AN-26 down from 23,000 feet, then that makes it obvious that it was not a manpad system. This could only have been the work of a sophisticated ground-to-air missile system. And these missile systems can hit a target at 23,000 feet just as easily as 45,000 feet (from the Dutch board, the BUK missile limit was around 80,000 feet). Now on July 14, Ukraine should have had enough knowledge to know that any aircraft flying in any Flight Levels was no longer safe, and so close their entire eastern airspace. But if Ukraine does that, they lose overhead flight fees....
 
mshunter said:
Am I the only one who still thinks "WTF were they doing flying over an active warzone, where other airplanes had been shot down recently?"
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That was a fairly common practice for airliners and corporate jets both, at that time of the shootdown. Watch the video...I think they said there were 2 or 3 other aircraft in the same area.

We had some funky things happen to our GPS recently going just east of there. I was not happy, and ready to be out of the area. Our typical route heading south takes us, I believe, still within 50-75 NM of the eastern Ukrainian border. I haven't measured it, but it's not too far. Us and ALL the airlines. There are some interesting areas of the world.
 
Stone Cold said:
That was a fairly common practice for airliners and corporate jets both, at that time of the shootdown. Watch the video...I think they said there were 2 or 3 other aircraft in the same area.

We had some funky things happen to our GPS recently going just east of there. I was not happy, and ready to be out of the area. Our typical route heading south takes us, I believe, still within 50-75 NM of the eastern Ukrainian border. I haven't measured it, but it's not too far. Us and ALL the airlines. There are some interesting areas of the world.
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If you see it coming, you may have a chance of avoidance in your bird. Two Learjets that had SAMs fired at them many years ago were able to make last ditch avoidance maneuvers and clear the area.
 
Stone Cold said:
That was a fairly common practice for airliners and corporate jets both, at that time of the shootdown. Watch the video...I think they said there were 2 or 3 other aircraft in the same area.
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Doesn't seem like a very good idea any more, now does it.

If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too?

Take the detour. Fly the extra few hundred miles. Charge your customers a little extra for the gas. Basically, don't fly over the active war zone, and you won't have to worry about being shot the hell out of the sky.
 
mshunter said:
Where was that at?
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Opening of the Falklands. Argentine AF used Lear 35s with no defensive systems as navigation pathfinders, reconaissance aircraft, and decoy birds against the Brits. On one occasion, two of them were picked up by HMS Coventry who fired 3 Sea Dart SAMs at them, of which they able to avoid all three. Later on a different engagement though, one of their other Lear 35s was shot down by HMS Exeter by a Sea Dart.
 
mshunter said:
Doesn't seem like a very good idea any more, now does it.

If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too?

Take the detour. Fly the extra few hundred miles. Charge your customers a little extra for the gas. Basically, don't fly over the active war zone, and you won't have to worry about being shot the hell out of the sky.
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We were already avoiding the area. Talk to the airlines about that one.

I will say it is very hard to figure out when flying in some areas where the safe zones are. Enjoy flying in the US, because it's not easy in other parts of the world to stay completely safe.

After this shootdown, they did a story on, I believe CNN, about Syria, and guess who was flying through Syrian airspace? Yep, Malaysian airlines.
 
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MikeD said:
If you see it coming, you may have a chance of avoidance in your bird. Two Learjets that had SAMs fired at them many years ago were able to make last ditch avoidance maneuvers and clear the area.
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The Russians I fly with don't realize, or choose to ignore it, not sure which. I prefer to be on the side of the windows with a view of the area when we do those transits. They'll put paper in the window to block the sun. I'm actively looking. I'm not sure what I'd do other than change altitude and direction as quick as possible, but at least I'm trying to look for threats.

I was with our Russian CP when the GPS went haywire. He said ah it's a bug. I laughed and said no, that's active jamming. We passed the area, and got GPS back. Yeah, a bug right adjacent to the Donetsk region. I had a few beers that night.
 
Stone Cold said:
...there were 2 or 3 other aircraft in the same area.
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Indeed, one being a Singapore Airlines A380.

mshunter said:
Doesn't seem like a very good idea any more, now does it.

If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too?

Take the detour. Fly the extra few hundred miles. Charge your customers a little extra for the gas. Basically, don't fly over the active war zone, and you won't have to worry about being shot the hell out of the sky.
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There is more to it than that, man. Dispatch has you flying over Ukraine. Everyone else is flying over Ukraine. No one thinks the rebels would target a civilian airliner. This wasn't following people off a bridge. Hind sight is 20/20, but of all the crews who flew over the war zone between the start of the fighting and the shootdown of this jet, it's unrealistic to say the MH17 crew specifically should have taken a stand and said "NO! We will not accept this airway, divert us North of Ukraine".
 
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Stone Cold said:
After this shootdown, they did a story on, I believe CNN, about Syria, and guess who was flying through Syrian airspace? Yep, Malaysian airlines.
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I think this is one of the things that the general public fails to consider when purchasing airline tickets from cheapplaneticketzzz.com
 
Stone Cold said:
We were already avoiding the area. Talk to the airlines about that one.

I will say it is very hard to figure out when flying in some areas where the safe zones are. Enjoy flying in the US, because it's not easy in other parts of the world to stay completely safe.

After this shootdown, they did a story on, I believe CNN, about Syria, and guess who was flying through Syrian airspace? Yep, Malaysian airlines.
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Imagine that. Common sense applied to flying.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Indeed, one being a Singapore Airlines A380.


There is more to it than that, man. Dispatch has you flying over Ukraine. Everyone else is flying over Ukraine. No one thinks the rebels would target a civilian airliner. This wasn't following people off a bridge. Hind sight is 20/20, but of all the crews who flew over the war zone between the start of the fighting and the shootdown of this jet, it's unrealistic to say the MH17 crew specifically should have taken a stand and said "NO! We will not accept this airway, divert us North of Ukraine".
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I'm not placing blame on the crews. I'm placing blame on the operation. Me personally, I'd be sick for every flight that involved a flight over a war zone. I'd rather be sick and fired, than dead. And if that excludes me from ever leaving a regional airline, guess I'd probably better get comfortable where I'm at.

I'm not going to bend on how idiotic flying over a war zone is, where OTHER AIRPLANES HAVE ALREADY BEEN SHOT DOWN!
 
ChasenSFO said:
No one thinks the rebels would target a civilian airliner.
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Maybe no one thought the States that had weapons systems capable of hitting targets at that altitude would do so? I'd say rebels are probably the party least concerned with international civil aviation regulations and airspace issues, and if it was indeed the rebels I'm sure they didn't buy a Buk with Bitcoin on the black market.

Either way it's a case of Russian aggression or Russians arming the "separatist rebels."
 
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