Methods for charging students?

On the comment above about a different rate for flight and ground time, I find that strange.

I disagree to an extent. If you feel that your ground instruction is worth "x" amount, then I would support that. On the other hand, I do not seek extra compensation for flight instruction because my information is worth more in an airplane, but rather I am incurring more risks to my lively hood.
i.e. Endorsing a 16 year old for a solo x-c around busy Bravo.
or any crazy things student pilots think might be a good idea. :panic:

I guess it is just the way you look at it though.
 
When I was CFI'ing, I would add .2 to the hobbs time (which what the student paid for the aircraft). If I anticipated a long pre or post brief, in the case of cross countries, I would tell the student ahead of time that we would have an extended brief.

I never had a student argue about it. I may have occasionally went over that time, but I was okay with it as well.
 
I disagree to an extent. If you feel that your ground instruction is worth "x" amount, then I would support that. On the other hand, I do not seek extra compensation for flight instruction because my information is worth more in an airplane, but rather I am incurring more risks to my lively hood.
i.e. Endorsing a 16 year old for a solo x-c around busy Bravo.
or any crazy things student pilots think might be a good idea. :panic:

I guess it is just the way you look at it though.
The reason for me that the ground rates and the light rates are different is not all that philosophical, at least at my pay grade. That's simply what the school charges and pays. Now the higher ups may have a reason...

I tend to agree with both mind sets. If it was up to me I would keep both rates charged and payed the same. Just seems like the payroll would be easier.
 
No offense, but if an instructor said this to me I would find a different instructor. What happens when the plane is back late and we are waiting around? If a student needs 10 minutes to preflight then it is only fair the plane is back 10 minutes early if the charges for CFI start as soon as the block time does (so you don't get charged instruction for doing your preflight) but the previous renter is only obliged to bring it back on time. After a while students don't require as much or any pre/post flight briefings. Can your students schedule the aircraft from 12-2 and you from 12.15 to 1.45? I have no problem paying for all the instruction received (flight, pre/post and ground), but wouldn't go along with this.
Then don't.

First, I think with your example of the late airplane you are making the assumption that the fee structure is cast in stone and there is no flexibility for changes in circumstances. (And I'd watch that assumption - a "things don't change when circumstances do" it might reflect a tendency toward missionitis.)

That aside, if to you as a student it's unfair to charge in blocks and you told me that, I'd have no problem and agree to whatever form of timekeeping you thought =was= fair and adjust my hourly rate to reflect the difference. If you felt better being charged $50/hr on the clock than $40/hr in blocks (example), that would be okay.
 
Half Day/Day rates. Someone recommended that a while ago and I've been doing it ever since. I like it.

-mini

How do you keep your students if you charge them for a half day if, for example, you only work with them for a couple hours? Unless your rate for a half day is really cheap... care to tell us your rates?
 
Then don't.

First, I think with your example of the late airplane you are making the assumption that the fee structure is cast in stone and there is no flexibility for changes in circumstances. (And I'd watch that assumption - a "things don't change when circumstances do" it might reflect a tendency toward missionitis.)

That aside, if to you as a student it's unfair to charge in blocks and you told me that, I'd have no problem and agree to whatever form of timekeeping you thought =was= fair and adjust my hourly rate to reflect the difference. If you felt better being charged $50/hr on the clock than $40/hr in blocks (example), that would be okay.

Thanks for the heads up on missionitis, I also suffer from duck under syndrome, getthereitis and generally trying to proove I have the right stuff!! :sarcasm:. I don't think there is a problem with any fee structure as long as it is known/agreed upon beforehand, like you have said above.
 
Makes sense Douglas when looked at that way. I do think in a situation that would threaten our livelyhood a lawyer could point to deficencies in ground or flight instruction. In my case I have establised a rate that I think I am worth for instruction. If I tried to bill at 2 rates I would confuse myself!:banghead:

I disagree to an extent. If you feel that your ground instruction is worth "x" amount, then I would support that. On the other hand, I do not seek extra compensation for flight instruction because my information is worth more in an airplane, but rather I am incurring more risks to my lively hood.
i.e. Endorsing a 16 year old for a solo x-c around busy Bravo.
or any crazy things student pilots think might be a good idea. :panic:

I guess it is just the way you look at it though.
 
did that go up recently? didn't seem like I paid that much.. if I did... it was worth it..

Ha! You need to read your receipts more closely.

It went up literally the last week or two of your training. We had been charging $45/hour with $40/hour for anyone who paid in advance. We raised it to $54/hour and $49/hour as the discounted rate. The last flight or two of yours was probably billed at $49/hour.
 
I usually feel bad about our high rental rates so I have been doing all ground school free and charge hobbs only. The FBO next door charges only 75 an hour for their 172, and we charge 115, so Its hard to justify charging them tons. Manager wants me to start charging though for Ground School so I might start.

It must work because I currently got 12 part time students vs our competitors 2 students.

Some days like today though I put in an 8 hour day soloing students, endorsing logbooks, and doing ground school and didn't have one hour of billable time :( Oh well, Its a side job for me as my main job is flying corporate and I like to promote GA. Most of my students came from our competitor even though we charge a higher rate, which still puzzles me. But it it keeps me busy :)
 
I usually feel bad about our high rental rates so I have been doing all ground school free and charge hobbs only.

Obviously you can do whatever you want, but I would caution anyone against setting their rates based on "I usually feel bad..."

Working for low rates because you honestly don't care about money is one thing (not really my style, but I can see how others might be in a different spot). Working for low rates because you feel bad about something will eventually make you disgruntled. High rental rates aren't your problem. There's no reason to make it your problem by working for less.

The FBO next door charges only 75 an hour for their 172, and we charge 115, so Its hard to justify charging them tons.

Huh? Maybe you're a better operation? Maybe you have higher operating costs (fuel, maintenance, office space, insurance, etc.)? Again, don't make something that's not your problem, your problem. Your customers know the rental rate and for one reason or another have decided your operation is worth it. You're not tricking anyone. You're not doing anything shady.

Manager wants me to start charging though for Ground School so I might start.

Sounds like something I would say, and let me explain, from a business perspective, why:

Any good business plan assumes X number of students will get their training through the school, and therefore, approximately X number of hours ground and flight training will get billed out. These numbers are used to set budgets and keep the business alive.

If you, as an instructor, decide not to charge for ground time, you just messed up the business plan. That's not just money lost out of your pocket, that's money lost from the business as well. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but you might as well take some cash out of the front desk till. You're affecting more than just yourself by not charging for ground time.

Along the same line, frankly, it isn't your place as an employee to be negotiating for the business as a whole. Think of it like this...if you take your car to the dealership to get serviced, is the technician allowed to say, "Normally we charge $65/hour, but I think we're overpriced, so you only have to pay half,"? No, that's not his place...he gets paid $18/hour to do his job and bill for the time he spends doing it, and if the shop charges $65/hour, so be it. There are business models in place that rely on this structure and he's stepping out of line to cut deals without management's approval.

It must work because I currently got 12 part time students vs our competitors 2 students.

Maybe you're a much better instructor! Not all instructors are created equal. Give yourself some credit, man.

Some days like today though I put in an 8 hour day soloing students, endorsing logbooks, and doing ground school and didn't have one hour of billable time :( Oh well, Its a side job for me as my main job is flying corporate and I like to promote GA.

Side job or not, make sure you're satisfied with your compensation. If you want it to be low for some reason, that's fine, but don't do it because you think you have to, are forced to, or obligated to. That's the impression I picked up from your post

Most of my students came from our competitor even though we charge a higher rate, which still puzzles me.

Flight schools are based on a lot more than simple rates. Look at your operation as a whole. It's a package deal. Do you have better equipment? Better facilities? Better availability? You're probably worth more than you think!
 
I dont understand.

How do you keep your students if you charge them for a half day if, for example, you only work with them for a couple hours? Unless your rate for a half day is really cheap... care to tell us your rates?
You have to keep in mind what I'm working with. I don't normally work with your typical "student" that comes in for 2 hours and leaves. Nor am I working at a flight school where I'll see 3-4 guys a day.

My clients are typically owners or club members looking for a flight review, an IPC, maybe an insurance check (I have one client that comes to me every 6 months to satisfy the insurance man in his 310), possibly an instrument or multi-engine rating or high performance/altitude/complex endorsements. That kind of thing.

My typical client is big money and they normally know it and they aren't afraid to let you know it. So what happens a lot is they get calls on their cell phone or they show up without a nav log filled out (as assigned), etc. and they I found that charging for time hourly I was getting shafted. When I read the recommendation to start charging day or half day rates, I took it. Similar to what I do when I charge a client a day rate for contract pilot work...

For typical piston stuff, I charge $250/half day or $400/day.

Half day gets you 4 hours with me. If you spend 3:58 of our time on the cell phone, that isn't my fault and I'll see you tomorrow/next week/next month. I try to schedule 0800-1200 when I do a half day but sometimes the client's needs dictate otherwise. Normally I'll roll into the parking lot around 0745, take 10 minutes to get my stuff situated and I'm ready to rock and roll around 0755. Spend 30-45 minutes pre-briefing, then go fly for an hour or two, then come back and post-brief and assign some reading or a flight plan, etc. Bottom line is that if we agree on 0800, I'll be ready to go. If you don't show up until 0930, you just wasted 90 minutes of your time and $93.75. We agreed on 0800...you're paying me. Most of my time is on the half day plan. If they show up and decide they only want to spend 2 hours at the airport, that's fine...$250.

For a day, you get me for 9 hours including an hour for lunch. If the client chooses to join me for lunch, I don't mind answering questions or even going over some of the next flight we're going to go on. I like doing full day stuff for instrument students and multi-engine students. I tend to prefer half day sessions for private pilot and commercial pilot students (the commercial guys can practice the maneuvers a lot on their own once I get them going). Again, 30-45 minutes briefing, go fly, come back and post-brief, maybe do some ground work or hit some oral questions then another quick brief, go fly, come back and post-brief and assign the homework. It's a really good system.

Benefits:

  • I don't feel bad when someone shows up 2 hours late and I charge them anyway.
  • I know it's worth my while to drive to which ever airport I'm meeting the client at. None of this 45 minute drives each way to bill 1.4 hours of instruction.
  • Invoicing becomes easy. I have it set up to enter the day and half day rates. I type in the date and e-mail it off. I don't have to track 1.4 here and 1.2 there and 2.1 there...
  • The client only makes the mistake once or twice of not reading/doing homework. If they don't do it, I don't mind...we just go over it together. If that means we just spent 4 hours reading, then doing an IFR flight plan/nav log, then you don't get to fly with me today...which means more lessons and more $ out of pocket. They quickly learn just to do the reading/assignment before they show up. Makes my job easier.
  • When I have to fly with them to the examiner, I don't have to feel bad about charging them for being there. That is already included in the day rate.
For solos (not that I do many these days...I just don't care for primary instruction and I'm not all that great at it, IMO although some of my clients tell me otherwise), I endorse on the first solo flight and one of the limitations is that they have to have my verbal and/or written approval prior to subsequent solo flights. Normally if they're just going to burn some avgas in the pattern, I have them call me, I'll check the weather, have them tell me what they know about the current/forecast situation and then give them approval and/or fax a written approval if I'm near a fax machine.

For solo cross country, I'm coming out to review your nav log/flight plan anyway, so normally I'll schedule a lesson (we'll go do something productive), then I'll cut them loose on the xc flight.

Works good. Last long time. I'm not about draining someone's wallet, but I'm a professional and I expect the client to participate in the learning process. If they don't, they'll either run out of funds or realize they're going to run out of funds and start doing the work like they need to.

-mini
 
Hi Guys,

I'm with Mini, and when I did some teaching in the past, I followed his general scheme.

If someone wants to pay by the hour, I'm $75/hr, ground or flight, with a minimum of two hours. That is the going rate for personal trainers, golf and tennis pros and the like in the area.

For the motivated students, I offer half and full days. A half day is a 2 hours ground session, followed by a 2 hour flight (or a 1 hour brief and a 3 hour flight for XC), and that's $275. A whole day is 2 2 hour briefs and 2 2 hour dual flights, plus coversation over lunch. That's $550.

Cross countries that take more than 4 hours are billed at the whole day rate because they eat my whole day. Anything that touches 7pm (6pm during EST) has a $30 night surcharge. I do NOT charge less for solo time. If you are riding on my signature, then you are being billed. In return, I ACTIVELY monitor each solo, whether it's watching them fly the pattern, or via flight track on XC, and I am on the ramp to greet the student each and every time.

No checks, no credit/debit cards, no foriegn currency. Cash, as in US Dollars, only, payable as services are rendered. No credit. How you spend your time is up to you...if you're late, or conduct other business during our time, that's up to you.

You might say "WTF,O?", but I always stayed as busy as I wanted to. I haven't done any in the last bunch of years, but by choice.


Richman
 
Ha! You need to read your receipts more closely.

It went up literally the last week or two of your training. We had been charging $45/hour with $40/hour for anyone who paid in advance. We raised it to $54/hour and $49/hour as the discounted rate. The last flight or two of yours was probably billed at $49/hour.


Receipts? I dont need no stinking receipts.. .

I don't think I ever actually read a receipt, they are all in my inbox still though.

I never worried about getting screwed.. (I should re-think that in future business transactions).. You guys told me about how much it would cost, and for the most part, were dead on.

We took a few flights that were probably not necessary --KC XC--- but they sure were fun!

Now I am getting out of a thread where I don't belong.
 
You might say "WTF,O?", but I always stayed as busy as I wanted to. I haven't done any in the last bunch of years, but by choice.


Richman
Ditto.

I like the surcharge idea for times when t he day runs long. I might have to give that a shot.

-mini
 
Ditto.

I like the surcharge idea for times when t he day runs long. I might have to give that a shot.

-mini

Hi Mini,

Yea, I got tired of days running long. I didn't care about dragging it out to the airport at night when I was 20, but as time went on, it became a PITA.

The other thing I did different is the solo issue. After some years of teaching, the number one thing I got from students is that they REALLY want to talk to someone after a solo/solo XC flight. They like to talk about what happened, what they saw, what they felt and so on, and I think that's only natural, even it's only to "share the moment" with someone.

So, while I did little primary in the last few years I was actively teaching, I made it a point to be there when the student got back. We'd talk a bit, and do a mini-debrief. To a student, they REALLY appriciated it, and not a single student ever complained about my "no solo" fee structure, because I gave them a value added service.

Richman
 
The other thing I did different is the solo issue. After some years of teaching, the number one thing I got from students is that they REALLY want to talk to someone after a solo/solo XC flight. They like to talk about what happened, what they saw, what they felt and so on, and I think that's only natural, even it's only to "share the moment" with someone.
Interesting thought on the issue. I'm not doing a ton of (actually I'm not doing any at the moment) primary, but I can see how this is a good idea. Thanks again.

-mini
 
Back
Top