Mesa Bases

[DE727UPS]

"The job is different now and the bridge program guys are simply taking advantage of the industry as is exists NOW (i.e. in the present)"

So, are you saying you have no problem with guys paying to be F/O's at Gulfstream, since it's all about the free market and captialism?

You seem to be happy to let the bar continue to lower and as long as it's the natural result of capitalism and the free market?

I don't know, I hate to think how low this could go with so many youngin's that would pay anything just to fly a jet. Next thing you know, if you want to upgrade you'll have to pay for it yourself. I mean, it's all fair in the free market...

 

[osupilot]

"Next thing you know, if you want to upgrade you'll have to pay for it yourself. I mean, it's all fair in the free market..."


now there's an idea. what, i think $1000/pax would work. then it would be 50k for the the crj200, 70K for the crj700 and 90K for the 900. they only require a bit of differences training but one carries more people and looks cooler. of course you'd still get 50 seat pay on all three because you took a job with that crap company.

 

[CLR4ILS]

First, if you're gonna quote something, either preview the post or learn to quote correctly. Here's a little lesson:

 [quote] -  begins a quote sequence.
[ /quote ] - ends a quote sequence. Make sure you follow the [quote] with 
[ /quote ] when you are done quoting, otherwise the quote won't surround 
the text.*

*Also, make sure you don't put a space between the "[" and "/". I couldn't do this in the example above or it would quote the code...sorry.
----------------------------------

Whew, with that done -

You missed the boat entirely on what Kell was saying (and what I quoted you saying).

Dougs old software was much easier to use with respect to quotes. Anyway, here it is.......

Maybe I missed the boat on what Kell was saying. I was under the impression that he was simply talking about "ratings".

As far as all of the regionals ONLY accepting resumes with a direct track program attached to it in the future, well I highly doubt it. I do not want to say never because then the crap alway's happens. As it is now, when companies like ASA hire for a class they choose maybe one or two CFI's, a couple of 135 guys (like frieght), a few corporate, maybe some 121, and now a few direct track. They try to mix it up.

I just want to make it clear that I am NOT doing a direct track program. I will defend it when compared to a 1000 hour CFI all day long with respect to experience and....... Oh I like this one...... "COMAND AUTHORITY" as a CFI.

Wheelsup, didn't you attend FSA? Wasn't sure. Thought you might have.


ILS

 

[Check_Six]

"The job is different now and the bridge program guys are simply taking advantage of the industry as is exists NOW (i.e. in the present)"

So, are you saying you have no problem with guys paying to be F/O's at Gulfstream, since it's all about the free market and captialism?

You seem to be happy to let the bar continue to lower and as long as it's the natural result of capitalism and the free market?

I don't know, I hate to think how low this could go with so many youngin's that would pay anything just to fly a jet. Next thing you know, if you want to upgrade you'll have to pay for it yourself. I mean, it's all fair in the free market...

Correct. It is all fair in the free market. And yes...I am an American who believes that living in a free-market capitalistic society is A.OK. :rawk: If you would prefer to go work in a socialist regime...please be my guest. I hear that Iraqi airlines is hiring. My apologies for the sarcasm, but are you seriously saying that you are opposed to the free-market system here in the U.S. Do you have another suggestion?

Read my posts in other forums. The only people who can change pay scales and affect airlines hiring from bridge programs are the pilot unions. They've got to toughen up. Time to stop re-negotiating for lower contracts. J.O. and Glen Tilton are winning that battle. The battle he can't win is the one where the planes sit on the ground becuase there are no pilots. As I've always said: Grounded planes = no $$$ = upset shareholders = new executive managers. That is the advantage of the free-market. You won't be dragged out and shot for exercising the right to negotiate and/or strike. It is your right as a laborer in this country.

I don't want a lower bar, but I'm not exactly seeing planes falling from the sky because of bridge programs. I'm sorry that you don't like the quality coming from those programs, but I don't resent that some person with flying in his/her blood can get to a career quicker.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Read my posts in other forums"

No need to bother.

"That is the advantage of the free-market. You won't be dragged out and shot for exercising the right to negotiate and/or strike. It is your right as a laborer in this country"

Actually, under the RLA, it's very hard to get into a situation where you can strike. And unless you have that threat, there is no need for management to negotiate. It's all much more complex than you think.

"I'm not exactly seeing planes falling from the sky because of bridge programs"

Both pilots in the PCL crash were former Gulfstreamers. After that accident, PCL raised their hiring standards. Do a search for the transcript. It's a good read on how not act in a jet.

 

[CLR4ILS]

"Read my posts in other forums"

No need to bother.


Actually, under the RLA, it's very hard to get into a situation where you can strike. And unless you have that threat, there is no need for management to negotiate. It's all much more complex than you think.

No need to bother huh? Why not read Checksixes other posts. Oh, I guess you are far too good and have far more knowledge than the rest of us.


One thing you "veterans" need to remember DE72 is that the lower pay and $hitty work conditions are around because you veterns rolled over when you should have striked. Oh yeah, go ahead and blame it on the rookie guys. What ever.......

You are always blaming the younger generation of pilots for accepting low pay and taking advantage of lesser hiring mins. Tell me this, does the new hire have the chance to negotiate his contract and pay? I didn't think so.

The younger generation pilot is at the mercy of the "current" industry conditions. It's no wonder they will take what they can get. Call it SJS or whatever, the most important thing today for the entry level pilot is to at least grab a seniority number while they can.

DE72...... take yourself out of your shoes for a minute, wake up, and attempt to realize what the next generation pilot is up against for a career in this industry.

ILS

 

[DE727UPS]

"No need to bother huh?"

No need to bother means anyone who is so radical in their views that they have no problem with what Gulfstream is doing doesn't meet my minimum level of interest in post reading.

"One thing you "veterans" need to remember DE72 is that the lower pay and $hitty work conditions are around because you veterns rolled over when you should have striked"

HAHA. That's a good one. You back that up with what sort of experience as a professional pilot? You're lack of knowledge of this industry is starting to show.

 

[Check_Six]

"Read my posts in other forums"

No need to bother.

Of course not. I wouldn't expect you to come down from your comfy '57 seat and consider what another educated pilot is thinking. :whatever:

Actually, under the RLA, it's very hard to get into a situation where you can strike. And unless you have that threat, there is no need for management to negotiate. It's all much more complex than you think.

Ah yes, it's all much more complicated than my feeble mind can understand. You make such a comment without having any clue about my academic credentials and understanding of labor dispute issues. Now you're venturing into unknown waters...out of your "league" per se. I will let you know that with my legal education I have no problem understanding the complexities of contract law. Thanks for trying, though.

And finally...

Both pilots in the PCL crash were former Gulfstreamers. After that accident, PCL raised their hiring standards. Do a search for the transcript. It's a good read on how not act in a jet.

Gulfstream training didn't kill those pilots. :banghead: I've read the transcript and concluded that they simply did not use good judgement. I'm sure there are even a few pilots at UPS who have made the occasional bad call. Those pilots didn't use their heads, didn't know their equipment, and wanted to "go there, and do that". Congratulations...they made it to 41,000 and it killed them.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Now you're venturing into unknown waters...out of your "league" per se. I will let you know that with my legal education I have no problem understanding the complexities of contract law. Thanks for trying, though"

I don't know. Maybe you're right. I'm only familiar with the situation at UPS. Under the RLA, you can't strike unless released by the mediator and getting the mediator to release you is a political decision rather than a fair one. The RLA is set up to keep labor issues from harming the nation's economy. It's very hard to get to a strike but without that threat a pilot group doesn't have much ammo. A pilots union could be sued by the company for just recommending that you not don't work overtime. How fair is that?

I'm no attorney, and I'm sure it shows, but one thing I know for sure. Scabs and the Gulfstream program are not good for this industry, and that's what I care about.

 

[CLR4ILS]

"No need to bother huh?"

No need to bother means anyone who is so radical in their views that they have no problem with what Gulfstream is doing doesn't meet my minimum level of interest in post reading.

Minimum level of intrerest in post reading......... Oh brother, you really do think you are god.

Hey Check_Six, you are so radical...... You crazy man, you crazy........

HAHA. That's a good one. You back that up with what sort of experience as a professional pilot? You're lack of knowledge of this industry is starting to show.

I may not have flown the line yet, but I have plenty of knowledge of the industry. From family members who have held the line to some very close friends who still do. One of which I am sure is senior to you at UPS. He is one of the most educated pilots on the industry and why it is today that I know. Why do you think he invests so much of his paycheck outside of aviation? He knows that if the time comes at UPS, he will not roll over to management. He will push for strike rather than take concessions.

I have known some sharp low time regional guys, and I have met some idiots that fly for the majors. I am still trying to figure out where you fit in........


ILS

 

[DE727UPS]

"He knows that if the time comes at UPS, he will not roll over to management. He will push for strike rather than take concessions"

Your friend and I are in agreement. I'm ready to walk away.

"I have met some idiots that fly for the majors. I am still trying to figure out where you fit in........"

Let me know when you figure it out, I could care less....

 

[SteveC]

Minimum level of intrerest in post reading......... Oh brother, you really do think you are god.

Why do you use a personal attack when you're "debating"?

 

[CLR4ILS]

Why do you use a personal attack when you're "debating"?

I know, I know, but sometimes you just have to call it like it is.....

O.K......... no more Jerry Maguires, no more "flippin out"

Peace, apologies, and all that good stuff...

ILS

 

[kellwolf]

Correct. It is all fair in the free market. And yes...I am an American who believes that living in a free-market capitalistic society is A.OK. :rawk: If you would prefer to go work in a socialist regime...please be my guest. I hear that Iraqi airlines is hiring.

Um, last time I checked, Iraq was working on becoming an Islamic Democracy, not a socialist regime. Plus, I hear the pilots do pretty well over in England, and they would be a socialist "regime."

Read my posts in other forums. The only people who can change pay scales and affect airlines hiring from bridge programs are the pilot unions.

Cause the pilot unions do the hiring, right? They can't negotiate "we don't want any bridge program people" into our contract. If they could, I'm betting it would be a close vote over at Mesa to nix some of the people there. Pay scales, yes. Influencing hiring, no.

You won't be dragged out and shot for exercising the right to negotiate and/or strike. It is your right as a laborer in this country.

When did "free market" become the opposite of dictatorship? You do realize that socialism is based around the worker and not management, right? You can negotiate or strike in a socialist country a LOT easier than here. When you get bored one night, read the RLA. It's not as easy to strike as John Q Public thinks in the airline biz.

 

[kellwolf]

Response to kellwolf......


You are doing your student a disservice by landing that plane after 3-4 approaches. you won't alway's be there. The student needs to be able to handle several missed approaches and be able to land the plane safely. Exhausted or not, our instructors at FSA would have said sorry, land the plane and it had better be your best yet.

Yeah, I forgot. FSA is infalliable. I suck. I should just quit this whole game. Maybe I'm also doing my students a disservice by not pulling the mixture on the engine at 500 AGL, cause I probably won't be there if that happens either.

" I know a LOT of CFIs that have well over 1000 hours and 300 ME, they're excellent pilots, good decision making skills, but they can't get hired b/c someone else took out a loan and bought a bridge program so they wouldn't have to instruct. "

Sorry.....I call BS. They either do not want it bad enough to follow through or there is something else that is keeping them from the interview.

Yeah, a phone call. You kinda need one of those before you can interview. What else other than littering the skies with resumes, calling in all the favors in the world and being willing to re-locate anywhere in the US (and possibly international) can they do? They're already doing that. One of the guys I instruct with has a masters degree, close to 1200 TT and over 300 ME, and hasn't even gotten a call from Colgan. Meanwhile, guys with half the time are getting hired left and right. I can see where that can be a little frustrating. But I bet if he ponied up the money and bought a jet transition course, ASA might call. THAT'S what I mean by driving up the cost.

I can remember when you were hell bent on attending PACE. I do not know why you ultimately decided not to. Could have been finances or simply an answer from God but I thought you were there for sure.

The fact that my best friend went through it, got hired at Mesa and damn near quit b/c he was so miserable had a little to do with it. That, and I didn't feel like putting all my eggs in one basket with an airline tied to two bankrupt majors. I spent less money on my CFI ratings, and I'll have a lot more options. I made the decision and I have never regretted it.

Sorry, wrong again...... The cost of flight training as a whole (ie. PPL through MEI) has nothing to do with advanced airline programs. It has to do with A/C price, Fuel pricing, insurance pricing, and the one that pisses me off the most....... $55.00 an hour flight/ground instruction especially at an FBO. Of course the people in charge will alway's blame our worst enemy, INFLATION.

Wheelsup pretty much cleared that whole thing up. He sorta re-phrased everything I was trying to say, but probably a bit better.

 

[Check_Six]

Um, last time I checked, Iraq was working on becoming an Islamic Democracy, not a socialist regime. Plus, I hear the pilots do pretty well over in England, and they would be a socialist "regime."

Cause the pilot unions do the hiring, right? They can't negotiate "we don't want any bridge program people" into our contract. If they could, I'm betting it would be a close vote over at Mesa to nix some of the people there. Pay scales, yes. Influencing hiring, no.

When did "free market" become the opposite of dictatorship? You do realize that socialism is based around the worker and not management, right? You can negotiate or strike in a socialist country a LOT easier than here. When you get bored one night, read the RLA. It's not as easy to strike as John Q Public thinks in the airline biz.

Are you seriously going to attempt a debate with me about the current state of the Iraqi government, the effects of union negotiations, and the intricacies of socialism? I'll be glad to hash it all out with you in a battle of intellects through PMs. Besides, if you like splicing my words so much then apply for law school. They'll love you. I'll sum up our debate for you in a few quick sentences:

1. Iraq is unsuccessfully attempting to create a democracy. The insurgents and religious factions are dissolving the ability of democracy to include the majority percentage of the population. Hence the reason the initially planned republic was unable to exist. Instead of political intimidation it's religious...fundamentalists v. generalists.

2. Since socialism is so "based on the worker", how do you explain the suffering of common workers under Stalin, Lenin, and Castro? Socialism is a tool used by political dictators to enslave populations with grand ideals and worthless results. England still maintains enough of a republic system with the houses of commons and lords that it avoids some of the direct implications of a purely socialist society. Socialism has failed nation after nation of hard-working people...Russia, Europe, Cuba...I can go on. Socialism sucks the life and competitive spirit out of people until they give in to human rights violations and permit ridiculous wages. Run a Google search for the successes of socialist governments...you won't find many positive articles other than party propoganda.

Are you a line pilot? I was under the impression that you are a flight instructor. If you can truly fill me in on the plight of the poor, helpless pilots unions and give me an insider's view of the "aviation biz" then I stand to be corrected. I am not John Q public and I have read enough of the RLA to know that it does not contain any sections telling pilot unions to accept bribes, um...er...contributions to retirement funds only for current pilots (i.e. UAL).

I imagine that this thread is headed for The Lav...thank God.

 

[CLR4ILS]

Yeah, I forgot. FSA is infalliable. I suck. I should just quit this whole game. Maybe I'm also doing my students a disservice by not pulling the mixture on the engine at 500 AGL, cause I probably won't be there if that happens either.

FSA infalliable..... stupid comment. As far as a disservice, yes. As far as the mixture comment, try the throttle next time on climb out. Not quite sure what the he!! you meant by the mixture thing...... you do or you don't?

One of the guys I instruct with has a masters degree, close to 1200 TT and over 300 ME, and hasn't even gotten a call from Colgan. Meanwhile, guys with half the time are getting hired left and right. I can see where that can be a little frustrating. But I bet if he ponied up the money and bought a jet transition course, ASA might call. THAT'S what I mean by driving up the cost.

Sorry for your friend. I just two of mine get hired at under 1000TT and 400 ME with only a bachelors degree. As far as the jet transition course, that is not a direct track course. Will it help the resume and will the student learn something valuable for his/her career? YES.

The fact that my best friend went through it, got hired at Mesa and damn near quit b/c he was so miserable had a little to do with it. That, and I didn't feel like putting all my eggs in one basket with an airline tied to two bankrupt majors. I spent less money on my CFI ratings, and I'll have a lot more options. I made the decision and I have never regretted it.

Tell your friend to quit beeyatchin. It's a job, and it is a stepping stone. I am sure he had heard the rumors or facts of Mesa before he did the program.

I am glad you do not regret your decisions. One is never sane when faced with that.

Wheelsup pretty much cleared that whole thing up. He sorta re-phrased everything I was trying to say, but probably a bit better.

yes, but a worthless point since it will most likely never happen.


ILS

 

[wheelsup]

Wheelsup pretty much cleared that whole thing up. He sorta re-phrased everything I was trying to say, but probably a bit better.

yes, but a worthless point since it will most likely never happen.
ILS

By quoting this, I have sent it to the anals of a MySQL database...you'll end up eating your words if the trend toward direct track programs continues, and I'll be eating mine if it doesn't. But then what do you care if it does? You and check seem to have more money than god, so screw everyone else :whatever: lol.

I agree with having an 'out' besides aviation. I haven't gone to work in almost 5 weeks, which allows me to pursue other part-time gigs that will end up making much more money than flying ever will. But it's nice to have a set income coming in while I'm out doing other things...thank goodness for min guarantee each month .

~wheelsup

 

[kellwolf]

Sorry for your friend. I just two of mine get hired at under 1000TT and 400 ME with only a bachelors degree. As far as the jet transition course, that is not a direct track course. Will it help the resume and will the student learn something valuable for his/her career? YES.

400ME being the key there.

Tell your friend to quit beeyatchin. It's a job, and it is a stepping stone. I am sure he had heard the rumors or facts of Mesa before he did the program.

Stepping stone to where? Skywest? Personally, I wouldn't want to go to a regional just to step up to another regional, but that's just me.

 

[FO_SHIZZLE]

Stepping stone to where? Skywest? Personally, I wouldn't want to go to a regional just to step up to another regional, but that's just me.

100% on the money.

[Soapbox]

I can't stand the "just get a seniority number" mentality. By all means get one, but get one where you want to work.

Lets say someone goes to Mesa, for instance, just to "get a number". Now they don't really want to work there but, gotta get that turbine time right? So we all are aware of Mesa's poor work and pay contracts with the pilots. Well what that is allowing them to do is undercut the "better regionals", you know, the ones you really want to work for. Those better regionals can't charge such a low rate and their flying is decreased.

So a year passes and you've got that precious terbine time and you are ready to get out at Mesa because you are unhappy there. Uh oh, of the couple of regionals where you wanted to work, one has had to reduce flying because Mesa has undercut their routes, so they wont be hiring, and the other one has had to lower their pay scale and change their work rules to resemble Mesa in order to compete. So eventually you never get to work for a good regional because Mesa was able to drive them out do to paying dirt cheap for low time pilots.

Plus, it will take you less time to just instruct for a year get the 1000 hours and go to a decent regional or whereever. I mean the other way just seems kinda dumb. [/soapbox]

By the way is it just me or does anyone else find it kinda ironic that the one person claiming to know what the regionals want does not, and I'm assuming, has not ever worked for the regionals. Just because you heard it from somebody does not mean it's true, hell, sometimes I tell people what they want to hear just so they will quit bothering me with dumb questions.