Mentoring - How does it work?

JrsyGuy

Well-Known Member
I've come across an opportunity to be a mentor. If you have two pilots sitting in the front seat and the mentor sitting in the back, is that time logable?
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Uh. . .not unless one of the individuals sitting up front is a Certificated Flight Instructor. . .or is acting as a Safety Pilot while the other pilot is under the hood.
 

AMH

Well-Known Member
I've come across an opportunity to be a mentor. If you have two pilots sitting in the front seat and the mentor sitting in the back, is that time logable?
Do you mean you are in the back seat as the mentor?

No. Not loggable.
 

flyboywbl

3rd regional in 1 year
We have a unique situation at our flight school. We fly a DA-42 twin star and for insurance you need to have 350 TT 50 multi and 5 in type to teach in it. I'm multi engine commercial, the guy who needs 5 in type is an MEI and the third guy (sitting in the back) Is an MEI who is covered under the insurance (he has over 6000TT and at least 200-300 hours in the twinstar). We all three get to log the time (from what I understand) but I split the cost with the MEI trying to get his 5 hours in type. I don't know if this is legit or not but it's what we are going to do. I think to be legal under the insurance i need to pay the whole bill, And for both MEI's, and then they just pay me back under the table.
 

unclenobby

Well-Known Member
flyboywbl......
"How do I tell that because of the un-freezing process I have no inner monologue.......I......hope I didn't say that out loud just now....." :panic:
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
I'm not sure I'd be putting all that info in there. Questioning whether it's legal and then saying you are going to do it anyways, and then the part about the pay...people do read this stuff, ya know?!;)
That is understandable, but as I recall, there is another full thread about his situation which kinda makes this thread meaningless in comparison from a legal standpoint :p
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
That is understandable, but as I recall, there is another full thread about his situation which kinda makes this thread meaningless in comparison from a legal standpoint :p
Ahh, sorry I must've missed that thread in all the ATC posts on the New Posts search.

Totally off topic, did anybody ever figure out the code to block the ATC forums in the new posts search?:D I love the ATC guys and gals but ya'll are a talkative bunch on here!!:p
 

JrsyGuy

Well-Known Member
Do you mean you are in the back seat as the mentor?

No. Not loggable.
Yes that's exactly what i mean. The guy I was speaking with said that there would be two pilots flying, one as a safety pilot and the mentor in the back seat and that it was loggable time. What if the mentor had their CFI. Would that make a difference?
 

AMH

Well-Known Member
Yes that's exactly what i mean. The guy I was speaking with said that there would be two pilots flying, one as a safety pilot and the mentor in the back seat and that it was loggable time.

You could log it if you wanted to. But it wouldn't be legal, and my advice is to not log it. It woudn't look bad on a resume' though and you could learn a lot more about being a cfi from the experience. I think it's wonderful that you're being a mentor. But if you're only doing it for the time, then it's not what you're looking for.

What if the mentor had their CFI. Would that make a difference?
No. If you sat up front then yes. Is there a reason why you can't be the safety pilot?
 

minitour

New Member
CFIs are allowed to give instruction from the back seat. There's no regulation specifically against it.

Would I do it?

I value my CFI Certificate, so probably not. Not that it isn't legal, but if something were to happen and I wasn't at a pilot station to be able to intervene then what would the feds say about that? It seems the CFI gets nailed on just about anything like that.

-mini
 

Stomp16

You mean Shennanigans?!?!
CFIs are allowed to give instruction from the back seat. There's no regulation specifically against it.

Would I do it?

I value my CFI Certificate, so probably not. Not that it isn't legal, but if something were to happen and I wasn't at a pilot station to be able to intervene then what would the feds say about that? It seems the CFI gets nailed on just about anything like that.

-mini
Exactly! I don't understand these people posting about logging dual given from the back seat. :confused: What's the point of you being the CFI sitting in the back? If something goes wrong, what help are you going to be besides offering moral support as the plane spirals to the ground?

If you value your certificate, don't instruct from the back. :rolleyes:
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
How did we get from "mentorship" to "CFIing from the back seat"?

BTW, there are plenty of CFIs who provide instruction in airplanes that have a back seat but are not dual control. Mostly WWII fighter types, like P-51s, Corsairs, Sea Furys, etc. While there are dual control versions of some of those fighters, the vast majority of them are not. Such a practice is completely legal and loggable.

Taking it even further, as a military instructor I can log IP time if I'm not even in the same aircraft as the student. If he is solo (ergo, not qualified in the aircraft but "signed off" to solo), and I am providing in-flight instruction over the radio, that is completely loggable.

I don't see why it would not work the same way from the back seat of a 172.
 

Stomp16

You mean Shennanigans?!?!
How did we get from "mentorship" to "CFIing from the back seat"?

BTW, there are plenty of CFIs who provide instruction in airplanes that have a back seat but are not dual control. Mostly WWII fighter types, like P-51s, Corsairs, Sea Furys, etc. While there are dual control versions of some of those fighters, the vast majority of them are not. Such a practice is completely legal and loggable.

Taking it even further, as a military instructor I can log IP time if I'm not even in the same aircraft as the student. If he is solo (ergo, not qualified in the aircraft but "signed off" to solo), and I am providing in-flight instruction over the radio, that is completely loggable.

I don't see why it would not work the same way from the back seat of a 172.
The thread went from mentoring to back seat CFI-ing (wow, I just made a word) when JrsyGuy asked if the mentor was a CFI, could they log the time? Also, I kind of combined this and another thread in my response about back seat CFI-ing.(There's been a few more posts about this lately.)

From what I've seen from green-under-the-wing pilots and from things I did as well in my training, I don't think it's a good idea to have a CFI in the back seat with no control over the aircraft if something did go wrong. I personally wouldn't want to put my certificates on the line to train someone, and then have something go wrong and not be able to do anything to save myself.

You mentioned about people giving instruction from the back seat of "WWII fighter types, like P-51s, Corsairs, Sea Furys, etc." without any dual controls. I really don't think these are student pilots climbing into these high performance machines to get their initial ratings. These are pilots with some time under their belt (I presume).

As I have no military experience myself, I have no clue what is legal and what is not in regards to logging flight time. Adding to that, I think that's really an outstanding accomplishment for you to be a military instructor. I applaud you for that. At the same time though, the people that make it into military flight training have been previously screened and tested to even make it to training. You have to already have a head on your shoulders to even sit in the cockpit. Because of that, I can understand being comfortable instructing from a back seat with no controls. I would trust those people with a lot more than I would an 18 year old kid right out of high school who hasn't even been in an airplane before. From what I think I understand you can't really compare military training to GA. It's two separate worlds.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
I really don't think these are student pilots climbing into these high performance machines to get their initial ratings.
I would trust those people with a lot more than I would an 18 year old kid right out of high school who hasn't even been in an airplane before.
So, really the argument is "for initial ratings" CFIs should not be instructing from the back seat. This I understand and completely agree with.

Unfotunately, many postings on this forum have categorically denied the idea of back seat CFI-ing. My point is that there are plenty of shades of gray to the situation. There is more to CFI-ing than teaching a PPL student in a GA aircraft, and as such there are several scenarios where teaching and logging from the back seat is a safe, legal, acceptable practice.

BTW, with respect to the types of people getting instruction in warbird fighters, you might be very surprised as to their experience levels. The type of person with the money to own one of those these days is likely a businessman and NOT a career pilot. Many of the owners are Comm ASEL types, who may have even only gotten the Commercial because their insurance company mandated it before they were able to own the airplane.

Last year, one such owner with a PPL died when he crashed his Mustang on his initial solo in the airplane (after 30+ hours of dual instruction...with the CFI in the back seat!).

http://www.thecamarilloacorn.com/news/2007/0720/front_page/001.html
 
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