MEI - time in type definition

[patthepilot]

So I'm going to get my multi in November in Dallas, and I'm thinking about the MEI after that. They fly TravelAirs, and we will soon be having some Barons at work for turbo testing. I know I need 15 hours PIC for MEI in the same type, does that mean it HAS to be TravelAirs or anything similar?

 

[juxtapilot]

So I'm going to get my multi in November in Dallas, and I'm thinking about the MEI after that. They fly TravelAirs, and we will soon be having some Barons at work for turbo testing. I know I need 15 hours PIC for MEI in the same type, does that mean it HAS to be TravelAirs or anything similar?

You need 15 hours PIC AMEL.

You will need 5 hours in type to teach in the aircraft.

 

[patthepilot]

So I can only count the checkride of the multi add on, and then I just need 15 hours total amel for my mei checkride. and to teach a total of 5 in that type?

 

[Douglas]

So I can only count the checkride of the multi add on, and then I just need 15 hours total not total but picamel for my mei checkride. and to teach a total not total but pic make and modelof 5 in that type?

Juxta said it flat out.

You need 15 hours PIC in any AMEL to take MEI ride.
Then Five hours PIC in a make/model before you can teach in it.
Yes, your checkride will count as PIC time.

 

[juxtapilot]

So I can only count the checkride of the multi add on, and then I just need 15 hours total amel for my mei checkride. and to teach a total of 5 in that type?

Correct. Include your addon checkride time (PIC) in the 15 hours total PIC for your MEI checkride.

Then you will need 5 hours PIC in each type of multi-engine aircraft you teach in.

Juxta said it flat out.

You need 15 hours PIC in any AMEL to take MEI ride.
Then Five hours PIC in a make/model before you can teach in it.
Yes, your checkride will count as PIC time.

Yup.

 

[Hubbs]

How is make and model defined? Would 5hrs PIC in a Seneca I allow you to teach in a Seneca III? How about a 55 baron vs a 58?

Thanks

 

[jhugz]

Then you will need 5 hours PIC in each type of multi-engine aircraft you teach in it.

Remember, I don't know if this helps you at all but the 5 hours PIC only needs to be completed to provide flight instruction towards the issuance of a certificate or rating. BFR, IPC, Instrument Proficiency, or General Proficiency, etc. etc. you don't need the 5 in type as a MEI even though it would be a pretty damn good idea.

 

[deadstick]

edit....:yeahthat:

Just to add a bit from 61.195....

"A flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, as appropriate."

So, as long as the student has an AMEL rating, then you can do instruction, just not that for a PPL/CPL/ATP-AMEL. For instance, if the person wanted a couple of hours of basic instrument instruction (some insurance companies require annual training).

Let the CAN v. SHOULD discussion follow...

As for the Baron v. Travel Air question, the original Baron 55 was, actually, a called 95-55 and all three (BE95, BE55, BE58) are all on the same TCDS 3A16.

 

[juxtapilot]

How is make and model defined? Would 5hrs PIC in a Seneca I allow you to teach in a Seneca III? How about a 55 baron vs a 58?

Thanks

Yes, I think so. I'm not completely sure though. The Piper Apache and Aztec are different aircraft but the same "Model" (PA-23). I think the 55, or 58 would be the "specific model"?? :dunno:

 

[juxtapilot]

As for the Baron v. Travel Air question, the original Baron 55 was, actually, a called 95-55 and all three (BE95, BE55, BE58) are all on the same TCDS 3A16.

So, would this be the same for the Apache vs. Aztec? They are on the same TCDS as well.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Yes, I think so. I'm not completely sure though. The Piper Apache and Aztec are different aircraft but the same "Model" (PA-23). I think the 55, or 58 would be the "specific model"?? :dunno:

I don't think so. Because, if you pull up the registration information on a Seneca I, it would show as a PA-34-200. Where as a Seneca II is a PA-34-200T. Then the III through V are PA-34-220T.

But, that's just a guess. I'd like to know the answer on this one, just for future use.

 

[juxtapilot]

I don't think so. Because, if you pull up the registration information on a Seneca I, it would show as a PA-34-200. Where as a Seneca II is a PA-34-200T. Then the III through V are PA-34-220T.

Well the Apache is a PA-23-150 and the Aztec is PA-23-250... Different airplanes same make/model.

But, that's just a guess. I'd like to know the answer on this one, just for future use.

Me too..

 

[Nihon_Ni]

Well the Apache is a PA-23-150 and the Aztec is PA-23-250... Different airplanes same make/model.

So is the PA-28-140/150/161...all the same M&M.

 

[deadstick]

Well the Apache is a PA-23-150 and the Aztec is PA-23-250... Different airplanes same make/model.

So is the PA-28-140/150/161...all the same M&M.

The BE35 Bonanza started with a 185hp engine and ended with a 285, with options of a turbo and a 300hp STC. There were airframe changes, too, that lengthened both the airframe and wingspan. It takes more than

Don't forget the PA23-235 APACHE. You'd be hard pressed to find the cosmetic differences between the 235 Apache and the first Aztecs. The systems are similar even though the engines and speeds are different. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the 757/767

There was a list on the FAA web that listed all the similar types, but I haven't found it recently.

 

[nosehair]

Ultimately, this will become a judgment call on the CFI giving the instruction for the certificate or rating. Imagine yourself on the accident investigation board deciding if the experience in the "specfic make and model" matches closely enough to the crashed make and model. What would you do?

 

[tgrayson]

How is make and model defined? Would 5hrs PIC in a Seneca I allow you to teach in a Seneca III? How about a 55 baron vs a 58?

Thanks

Here's how the old Part 61 FAQs answered the question:

QUESTION: A aircraft owner who hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Airplane Multiengine Land rating and Private Pilot Privileges-Airplane Single Engine Land. He wants to receive flight training in his personal-owned multiengine airplane. This desired training is not for a certificate or rating, but is related to a Flight Review, annual insurance requirements, or perhaps an Instrument Proficiency Check. He is having trouble finding an available MEI. § 61.195(f) contains the limitation: "A flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, as appropriate." It would appear that the underlined phrase qualifies this regulation. Can a certified flight instructor who holds Airplane Single and Multiengine and Instrument Airplane ratings on his flight instructor certificate, and appropriate ATP / Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Airplane Multiengine Land on his pilot certificate, but who has no time as PIC in the owner's "make and model" of multiengine airplane give this training?

A related question, is how specific is "Make and Model" with respect to the restriction of § 61.195(f), [e.g., Apache PA-23-150 versus PA-23-160; Aztec PA-23-235; PA-23-250; Turbo Aztec C, D, E, F, etc.?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(f); No, a flight instructor who does not have at least 5 hours of PIC flight time in a specific make and model of multiengine airplane may not give training in that specific make and model of airplane. A flight review is considered giving training.

As for your related question, the make is Piper and the model is PA-23. The additional references [i.e., -150 and -160] relate to the different series of the Piper PA-23 Apache. The additional reference [i.e., -160, -235, -250, C, D, E, and F] relate to the different series of the Piper PA-23 Aztec.

 

[jhugz]

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(f); No, a flight instructor who does not have at least 5 hours of PIC flight time in a specific make and model of multiengine airplane may not give training in that specific make and model of airplane. A flight review is considered giving training.

How old is this T? and you don't by chance have an original copy. I think the reg's spell it out pretty black & white but this goes ahead and flips my belief of the reg on it's head. I love it.

 

[tgrayson]

How old is this T? and you don't by chance have an original copy. I think the reg's spell it out pretty black & white but this goes ahead and flips my belief of the reg on it's head. I love it.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the regulation, although I find the second part discussing what "make and model" means at least plausible.

 

[Nihon_Ni]

I searched the FAA's web site for information on what "Aircraft Type" to use when filling out a flight plan and I found 2 answers that may be of interest to this discussion. The first answer was to consult a FSS briefer. The second pointed to an ICAO database: http://www.icao.int/anb/ais/8643/index.cfm It's not a list of M&M types, but you can search for the code you need to put in a flight plan. It seems logical that if you can put down the same code for two different airplanes then they are the same M&M. (The question about is a Seneca I a different type from a Seneca V, for example, seems to be resolved when there's only one listing for Seneca: PA34.)

 

[deadstick]

Leave it to the FAA to make people more confused with interpretations of the already confusing regulations. It says "make and model." Not "make/model/series."

:crazy: