Medical Chopper down, 3 dead

What's going on with the medevac crash?

Anyone in the know?

None of the articles I've read on the handful of medevac incidents go into detail on the cause of the crashes. Seems they're having a disportionate amount of incidents.

(moving to the active thread.....MikeD)
 
Re: What's going on with the medevac crash?

Low_Level_Hell said:
Anyone in the know?

None of the articles I've read on the handful of medevac incidents go into detail on the cause of the crashes. Seems they're having a disportionate amount of incidents.
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It does seem that way. I always hate to hear about helos going down and I'd like to learn what the contributing factors were.
 
What stands out about this crash is that the helicopter was 32 years old - I feel bad for Bain Capital, I heard they bought AirEvac 2 days ago for $1B.
 
Yeah flying a helicopter involves more risk than other occupations, but as far as flying helo's go it doesn't seem like a high risk flight profile. Take off from point A to B to C with point B being the only unfamiliar phase of the flight. I know in the military RW operations training flights involve landing into unprepared areas several times a flight and the military flies many times more hours than medevac and doesn't seem to have near the accident rate as of late.

With 22 people having died in medevac crashes in the past year (so says USA Today), there has to be a big red flag to wave about something or another, be training, mechanical, or other issues.
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
I know in the military RW operations training flights involve landing into unprepared areas several times a flight and the military flies many times more hours than medevac and doesn't seem to have near the accident rate as of late.
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This is what really piques my curiosity when I hear about these things. In addition to the aspects that you mentioned, it seems like the vast majority of EMS pilots I've encountered have military training and most of those pilots have combat experience. They should be no strangers to demanding helicopter flight modes and possess the experience and training to accomplish the EMS mission safely.
 
Ollie said:
This is what really piques my curiosity when I hear about these things. In addition to the aspects that you mentioned, it seems like the vast majority of EMS pilots I've encountered have military training and most of those pilots have combat experience. They should be no strangers to demanding helicopter flight modes and possess the experience and training to accomplish the EMS mission safely.
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Most EMS jobs are single pilot while most military RW aircraft now are operated with two pilots. In a properly trained crew that extra pilot significantly decreases the risk in the environment where the crews operate (low altitude, high pressure, often flying back side of the clock). Also, I'm not sure how the non-flying crew members are trained in EMS since I don't have that background, but military crew members are trained to be a valuable and vocal part of the crew. I know a CE saved my rear end at least once, especially while flying "a little tired".
 
Blackhawk said:
Most EMS jobs are single pilot while most military RW aircraft now are operated with two pilots. In a properly trained crew that extra pilot significantly decreases the risk in the environment where the crews operate (low altitude, high pressure, often flying back side of the clock). Also, I'm not sure how the non-flying crew members are trained in EMS since I don't have that background, but military crew members are trained to be a valuable and vocal part of the crew. I know a CE saved my rear end at least once, especially while flying "a little tired".
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Very true. With the amount of military experience in EMS I'd figure that crew coordination has worked its way into their aircrew training programs but I can't say that for certain. I wonder how much of a contributing factor crew composition is in EMS accidents (i.e. having only a single pilot and no trained FEs/CEs).

The news reports of these accidents are always alarmingly void of details. They simply state that an EMS helicopter crashed and x people perished. I attribute that to a general unfamiliarity with helicopters and how they operate to the press and the general public. What do you guys think?
 
I think the thing with medical choppers is the inherent increased risk. You combine a defined urgency to the mission, the general need to land at less than ideal sites, a compelling drive to fly in marginal weather conditions to save lives and you get an industry that is bound to have a higher incident rate.
 
boondr said:
You combine a defined urgency to the mission, the general need to land at less than ideal sites, a compelling drive to fly in marginal weather conditions to save lives and you get an industry that is bound to have a higher incident rate.
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That is the problem. The pilots should not allow the mission effect their decision to accept the flight. I have never flown medevac but have been around the community my entire life. I've seen dispatchers, who aren't pilots, push and try to guilt trip pilots into taking trips (if you don't take this trip XYZ Company is lined up to do it). The majority of accidents I am farmiliar with have occured on flights where the patient would have lived if they were transported via ambulance, the most recently being the MSP accident where the patient survived the accident and lived through the night until the accident scene was found. The crew all died.

Alex.
 
CK said:
That is the problem. The pilots should not allow the mission effect their decision to accept the flight. I have never flown medevac but have been around the community my entire life. I've seen dispatchers, who aren't pilots, push and try to guilt trip pilots into taking trips (if you don't take this trip XYZ Company is lined up to do it). The majority of accidents I am farmiliar with have occured on flights where the patient would have lived if they were transported via ambulance, the most recently being the MSP accident where the patient survived the accident and lived through the night until the accident scene was found. The crew all died.

Alex.
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I am very familiar with the TRP2 crash, and can't say I disagree with you. However I fairly certain there was nobody else lined up to do it that night.
 
Re: What's going on with the medevac crash?

Low_Level_Hell said:
Anyone in the know?

None of the articles I've read on the handful of medevac incidents go into detail on the cause of the crashes. Seems they're having a disportionate amount of incidents.

(moving to the active thread.....MikeD)
Click to expand...

One of my friends flys EMS and said the AZ accident had something to do with mechanical failure.
 
Blackhawk said:
Also, I'm not sure how the non-flying crew members are trained in EMS since I don't have that background, but military crew members are trained to be a valuable and vocal part of the crew. I know a CE saved my rear end at least once, especially while flying "a little tired".
Click to expand...

From my experience they are very active - I was on a ride recently and orbiting everyone participated in noting where the power lines and other obstacles were located. The person who is sitting up in the front with the pilot (usually the paramedic) although has no training flying the aircraft, do have training in navigation, and are a useful set of eyes. On the return legs of course the pilot is on their own - however the trend recently has been empty helicopters crashing.

boondr said:
I think the thing with medical choppers is the inherent increased risk. You combine a defined urgency to the mission, the general need to land at less than ideal sites, a compelling drive to fly in marginal weather conditions to save lives and you get an industry that is bound to have a higher incident rate.
Click to expand...

It would seem that way to the general public however from my experience it isn't - you get paged with just a location, you accept based on that alone. Once you are in the air you get the patients information. As far as flying in marginal weather, 30% is an industry figure of flights that are not accepted due to weather - to me that suggests as an industry they do and are quite good at refusing flights due to weather. As far as LZs, in my experience the ambulance generally brings the patient to the landing zone - so it really shouldn't be risky.

But what is interesting is Canada has zero accidents in the last decade and I believe England may have only had 1 - of course there are many more helicopters in the US but still gives you some comparison and suggests something is not right.
 
A few months ago (after a different crash) I wondered if the statistics would be different if they used 2 pilots. Seems that it works for Corporate and such.
So at an airshow I attended I made it a point to go over to the medevac crews and ask their thoughts. The first guy's response: Why do I need another pilot up front? He would just get in the way.
Second guys: Yeah it would be safer, and with the number of accidents lately it seems we may be flying 2 pilots in the near future.

Just wondering what ya'll think of non single pilot medevacs?
 
js0305 said:
A few months ago (after a different crash) I wondered if the statistics would be different if they used 2 pilots. Seems that it works for Corporate and such.
So at an airshow I attended I made it a point to go over to the medevac crews and ask their thoughts. The first guy's response: Why do I need another pilot up front? He would just get in the way.
Second guys: Yeah it would be safer, and with the number of accidents lately it seems we may be flying 2 pilots in the near future.

Just wondering what ya'll think of non single pilot medevacs?
Click to expand...

The Maryland State PD bird was 2 pilot, and it crashed too.

Two pilot may be safer, but there's two three things with many medevacs that have to be factored in with a second pilot:

- the additional room for a second pilot. Helos like the medevac-converted AS-350s (the most common EMS helicopter out there).....isn't going to happen. No room for nearly the flight crew + patient, much less the extra pilot.

- Weight. Another pilot (assmuning there's the room), reduces performance to be able to get to places where there may be power problems, and lessens the amount of weight that can be carried without him.

- Cost.
 
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