Media Now Claiming Man Did Not Say Bomb

[Minnesota_Flyer]

So, yet again, people are arguging with a Marine about how to kill somebody? Does anyone else find that comical?

Eh! What's a Marine know from killin'?

I don't know nothin' about FAM training, but FBI are trained to aim for the center of body mass and keep firing until either the threat stops or the weapon does. Head shots are disfavored because the head is small relative to the body and easier to miss.

 

[Aero_Engineer]

As much as I am against violence and blood sheding, but the air marshalls acted as they were trained. You have to remember this all probably took place in a couple of minutes so they don't have time to assume that the person has mental illnesses or whether he is or he is not carrying a bomb, imagine god forbid if something bad would have happened in real then you would see all of us thinking about career change since aviation industry in this country would have been flushed down the toilet.

 

[tonyw]

The key for me is that they said he was reaching for his bag. Bad idea. And one that gives the officer in question no choice. They already put their lives on the line, and asking them to not react to someone who's reaching for a bag who did something bad enough for you to need to detain him...I'm not one who's a shoot first, ask questions later guy, but there's no choice there.

 

[flyover]

The only thing we know for sure is: No matter how unstable he was, he's really stable now.

 

[I_WANNA_BE_ATP]

The only thing we know for sure is: No matter how unstable he was, he's really stable now.

Easiest set of vital signs a nurse could take!!!

 

[Philip]

Eh! What's a Marine know from killin'?

I don't know nothin' about FAM training, but FBI are trained to aim for the center of body mass and keep firing until either the threat stops or the weapon does. Head shots are disfavored because the head is small relative to the body and easier to miss.

the actual penetration percentage of handgun rounds into the skull is quite low, somewhere around 40% IIRC. Many shots will glance off.

How much actual tactical handgun training the marines get I don't know, I'm guessing the majority of them aren't trained to handle threats in this type of environment.

 

[Philip]

As much as I am against violence and blood sheding, but the air marshalls acted as they were trained. You have to remember this all probably took place in a couple of minutes so they don't have time to assume that the person has mental illnesses or whether he is or he is not carrying a bomb, imagine god forbid if something bad would have happened in real then you would see all of us thinking about career change since aviation industry in this country would have been flushed down the toilet.

I agree, hindsight is pointless. He made the decision he had to make with the information available to him or her at the time, that's all.

 

[Stone Cold]

I'm no expert on the Marines, but I'm prior Navy, was a computer tech, and was qual'ed on 6 weapons, during various times in my career. And the Navy Security is as the FBI training stated above, center of mass, head shots don't work most of the time, and shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

Just my $.02

TX

 

[tonyw]

The other thing -- someone correct me if I am wrong here -- is that Marines use a 7.62 mm round coming from an M-16, which has both higher mass and velocity than a handgun and thus much more destructive capability.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

 

[Philip]

The other thing -- someone correct me if I am wrong here -- is that Marines use a 7.62 mm round coming from an M-16, which has both higher mass and velocity than a handgun and thus much more destructive capability.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

yes, there is no comparison to .223 and .357 sig as far as stopping power or energy.

I'm sure they have baretta sidearms but don't know to what extent they use them.

 

[badco99]

Another thing to consider is that accuracy drops to somewhere around 25% (as I recall) in real world situations. I'm sure a lot of people have seen the videos of officers shooting 15 rounds and hitting nothing. I know the Air Marshalls can probably all shoot expert, but there's a big difference between a stationary target and a person. Taking out the "computer" is nice, but center mass is a bigger target.

 

[GatorFC]

The other thing -- someone correct me if I am wrong here -- is that Marines use a 7.62 mm round coming from an M-16, which has both higher mass and velocity than a handgun and thus much more destructive capability.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

M-16's use the 5.56mm round. You've been watching too much Full Metal Jacket Tony.

 

[Philip]

Another thing to consider is that accuracy drops to somewhere around 25% (as I recall) in real world situations. I'm sure a lot of people have seen the videos of officers shooting 15 rounds and hitting nothing. I know the Air Marshalls can probably all shoot expert, but there's a big difference between a stationary target and a person. Taking out the "computer" is nice, but center mass is a bigger target.

The marshals are trained a little better than that

 

[sopdan]

The other thing -- someone correct me if I am wrong here -- is that Marines use a 7.62 mm round coming from an M-16, which has both higher mass and velocity than a handgun and thus much more destructive capability.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

Higher velocity, yes (quite a bit)
Mass, no (5.56 ~55-62 grains, .357 Sig ~125 grains)
Energy, 5.56 wins by a lot
Expansion diameter, probably safe to say .357 Sig is greater, but due to different bullet designs, I can't give a definitive answer without more research
Another factor is the type of bullet (FMJ vs. JHP)

Hey, you asked!!!

Oh, and the FAMs are issued Sig 229's chambered for .357 Sig, not sure if that was mentioned earlier.

 

[ananoman]

For those who are interested, you can find about everything you ever wanted to know about .223 military ammo at www.ammo-oracle.com

 

[tonyw]

M-16's use the 5.56mm round. You've been watching too much Full Metal Jacket Tony.

Sorry, man. And you're right, I will never forget that whole "7.62 millimeter, full metal jacket" bit.

Anyway, am I at least right on the muzzle velocity? Looks like it, according to Sopdan.

And remember, KE=1/2MV^2

 

[aloft]

Taking out the "computer" is nice, but center mass is a bigger target.

Again, two words: body armor.

The two-to-the-chest, one-to-the-head is to cover all your bases in case the dude IS wearing a vest. Firing til your clip is empty isn't an option in a plane full of passengers.