Medford NJ Helo Crash

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You're probably seeing something that has a fenestron tailrotor instead of the conventional tail rotor. It is still a functional tail rotor, except it is enclosed so it's protected. It provides directional control by operating like a ducted fan.

No, it wasn't this. No visible blade or fan or spinning rotor. See above post.

 

[milleR]

That's a MD500? It wasn't this exact helicopter, but the back setup was the same. It had vertical slits just like the first picture shows.

It's an MD, but not a 500. I think it's a 520 or a 600.

 

[killbilly]

I'm guessing it's one of these:

There's either a military or spook variant of this that hauls ass up the Anacostia toward the Pentagon on a regular basis. Has a unique sound.

I"ve gotten pretty good at telling what kind of helo is coming up the river by the sound lately - I'm not always right but I get a lot of em.

 

[deadstick]

Thank you all and esp @MikeD for the heli responses. I think you already hit the nail on the head for my next question, what if you're a news or police chopper just hovering at 0 knots in one place, say at 1,000AGL (or less) and then the engine fails. Right off the bat sounds like a dicey proposition.

Also, the hospital where my father works has a helipad and occasionally I see a nice blue heli there that has no spinning blade on the back side. Nothing that I can see spinning at all. What kind of setup is this? You need a blade back there to stop the torque-movement opposite direction spinning, right?

Where's the hospital? The MD Explorer has NOTAR, too.

For your scenario, 1000' AGL is plenty to gain forward airspeed while lowering the collective to maintain rotor rpm. Below is the height velocity diagram (aka dead man's curve) that factors DA and weight. The section below has the rest of the story.

From The Helicopter Flying Handbook:

That's a fine looking bumblebee.

 

[Flyinhigh728]

That's a fine looking bumblebee.

I agree. Im a fan of the the PHI paintsheme on their 407's as well.

 

[Bear]

for the record, photo of accident helo.

 

[digduggy]

I agree. Im a fan of the the PHI paintsheme on their 407's as well.

But you can't beat the teal mobile!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[deadstick]

But you can't beat the teal mobile!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What can I say? It's Jersey.

 

[deadstick]

The customer drives the paint scheme at hospital-based programs.

 

[MikeD]

Thank you all and esp @MikeD for the heli responses. I think you already hit the nail on the head for my next question, what if you're a news or police chopper just hovering at 0 knots in one place, say at 1,000AGL (or less) and then the engine fails. Right off the bat sounds like a dicey proposition.

That's my nightly life, hovering inside high altitude canyons in the dark in order to provide light or lift for ground units on the peaks/saddles or cliff sides, but at about 100-200 AGL at 4000-7000 or so MSL. Knowing full well that if the engine were to crap out right then, that there's literally nowhere to go but down. Can attempt to make a 180 with the torque and head downhill to establish some forward velocity for a successful auto, but the chances of succeeding in doing that is nil to none. Just the hazard and risk that comes with needing to do that particular operation, in that particular area, at that particular time.

Also, the hospital where my father works has a helipad and occasionally I see a nice blue heli there that has no spinning blade on the back side. Nothing that I can see spinning at all. What kind of setup is this? You need a blade back there to stop the torque-movement opposite direction spinning, right?

If is an MD900 or similar helo, then it's a NOTAR, or NO TAil Rotor, as shown. Uses blown air for anti torque as opposed to a tail rotor assembly. Nice design but hasn't caught on in popularity.

 

[Nark]

Are there drastic LTE issues with notar's?


My task force homeboys allegedly have LTE issues with the hawk, whereas we in the M's don't necessarily.

 

[deadstick]

Are there drastic LTE issues with notar's?


My task force homeboys allegedly have LTE issues with the hawk, whereas we in the M's don't necessarily.

I seem to recall that the 160th put NOTARs on their -6s...and then removed them.

 

[MikeD]

Are there drastic LTE issues with notar's?


My task force homeboys allegedly have LTE issues with the hawk, whereas we in the M's don't necessarily.

Hasn't been that I've heard, though you'd think with heat vs air density that there perhaps would be, especially in say a Phoenix summer. Big issue with the NOTAR is the life of the tail assembly. At the end of its hours, the tail assembly is no more than a paperweight, and the cost to replace is quite high. Phoenix PD was the launch customer for the MD520N NOTARs. And they faced this issue as well a few others with product support from MD, that became cost prohibitive, so they retired their 520s.

 

[Lawman]

I seem to recall that the 160th put NOTARs on their -6s...and then removed them.

It's unsuitable for combat operations due to it being much more susceptible to ground fire effects.

Despite movies helicopters tail rotors are actually very hard to damage to ground fire. The drive shaft it's self is capable of absorbing damage, the drive system has flail control devices if the system is hit, the blades themselves function with holes in them (ask me how I know).

It's actually the fenestron and the NOTAR that have a real problem making the jump to combat operations. NOTAR takes a couple rounds and instead of sheet metal work to do when you get back you essentially lose tail rotor authority. Fenestrons look cool, but are horrid for austere field conditions. First time I actually saw a Comanche in person I just shook my head laughing at the stupidity of putting a giant enclosed spinning metal fan 18 inches above all the FOD that it would see doing operations out in the field.

 

[MikeD]

The movie is Broken Arrow. The helicopter blades opens a bad guy's chest cavity and keeps on truckin' along.

Perfectly doable. The main rotor blades of a Huey versus a human body is akin to a hot knife through warm butter.

 

[deadstick]

Perfectly doable. The main rotor blades of a Huey versus a human body is akin to a hot knife through warm butter.

The UH1Hs used to make their ow LZs by taking off the tops of small trees. We're not talking sycamores, but still...impressive.

 

[milleR]

One of my favorite books, "Seawolves" has a great story about descending into some dead trees to grab an injured SEAL, dropping him off at the LST and then responding to a unit in contact. After landing they found the blades were completely trashed but the Huey kept flying through it all. Amazing.

 

[MikeD]

The UH1Hs used to make their ow LZs by taking off the tops of small trees. We're not talking sycamores, but still...impressive.

All of our regular H model UH-1s are now recently retired. A few Super Hs remain, as well as our N model UH-1s. This one was with us the other week at CXO.

 

[MikeD]

One of my favorite books, "Seawolves" has a great story about descending into some dead trees to grab an injured SEAL, dropping him off at the LST and then responding to a unit in contact. After landing they found the blades were completely trashed but the Huey kept flying through it all. Amazing.

US Navy's HAL-3 was one of the most distinguished combat squadrons of theirs, especially because it wasn't a carrier-based jet squadron who normally get the visibility and movies made of them. They, along with units such as HC-7, and VAL-4, and in peacetime HAL-4 & 5 and HC-9 (reserve), are some of the relatively unknown USN units who had exceptionally important, but largely unknown, missions.

 

[bucksmith]

That's my nightly life, hovering inside high altitude canyons in the dark in order to provide light or lift for ground units on the peaks/saddles or cliff sides, but at about 100-200 AGL at 4000-7000 or so MSL. Knowing full well that if the engine were to crap out right then, that there's literally nowhere to go but down. Can attempt to make a 180 with the torque and head downhill to establish some forward velocity for a successful auto, but the chances of succeeding in doing that is nil to none. Just the hazard and risk that comes with needing to do that particular operation, in that particular area, at that particular time.



If is an MD900 or similar helo, then it's a NOTAR, or NO TAil Rotor, as shown. Uses blown air for anti torque as opposed to a tail rotor assembly. Nice design but hasn't caught on in popularity.

But you've got two engines to do that stuff, right?? If not, jeez man, I hope you drink a lot.