Medevac

[GolfChuck]

The R-4808 folks can take pointouts on medevacs just like almost every other restricted airspace in our center. Not a big deal at all. Nice try though!

The pilot still wouldn't file it because they don't know and their responsibility, like ours, is primarily the safety of the flight as a whole, not the safety of a single passenger. And they would plan for the possibility that they would have to fly the entire route they filed. I have that situation also with W-107 and W-105. Sometimes Giant Killer can take the point out and sometimes they can't. Or sometimes what they can approve doesn't work for us, such as leaving them in the flight levels through the warning area.

 

[ATC Jesus]

Not sure Dreamland Control would be agreeable to that.....but you can try them on the landline, if they answer. Let me know how that one works out.

Well that's a matter of simply not knowing our procedures at all. In the example you mentioned (PSP to SLC), that barely cuts through the airspace, they'd approve that all day long. Sure, cutting up over Area 51 isn't going to happen, but the example you listed was simply an uneducated attempt at trying to prove me wrong. Didn't work.

 

[MikeD]

Well that's a matter of simply not knowing our procedures at all. In the example you mentioned (PSP to SLC), that barely cuts through the airspace, they'd approve that all day long. Sure, cutting up over Area 51 isn't going to happen, but the example you listed was simply an uneducated attempt at trying to prove me wrong. Didn't work.

Uneducated? How much do you know about ops uprange? And you're the one who said "direct to everywhere." May not work out that way in some cases. Simple as that.

You've proven yourself wrong throughout this thread with your attacking attitude and demeanor, straight out the gate. Not the way to get people on your bandwagon. Technique only.

 

[deadstick]

As an EMSer, I appreciate the aid of ATC getting us to the destination ASAP and your desire to see change at the national level. However, if you've been around this forum for more than a week, you would know more about the people here, people such as Mike, and would understand when I write that your comments are the uneducated ones.

I don't want to get into a whizzing contest about this. If you want get change going at your organization, I recommend more honey. Facts, statistics, and a lot more honey.

 

[ATC Jesus]

Well...when Mike tells me to, "Call so-and-so on the landline and see how well that goes", etc., with the little smilies, and condescending tone, it is absolutely an uneducated response. That isn't meant to be derrogatory or demeaning, it's simply that he truly is uneducated in those operations, because as I said, we make pointouts to our ranges/restricted area controlling agencies ALL THE TIME. I don't know what else to call that besides uneducated. He isn't sitting in our chair everyday to see how things really work. What else would you call his response? Deadstick? Bueller? It would be like me telling you how things operate up in your airplane, even though I have no clue and aren't up there every single day.

I did indeed say "direct to everywhere". Of course it may not work out that way in some cases, but it makes sense to issue the direct routing, and then use small vectors as needed to get people around airspace. Half the time, even the routes filed by air carriers do not clear restricted/military-use airspace. It's usually a quick vector or an additional fix to keep them clear. Same goes for the medevacs. If you have to give them a quick vector to miss airspace, then you have to, but at least for the majority of their flight, they are on as direct a routing as possible.

 

[MikeD]

Well...when Mike tells me to, "Call so-and-so on the landline and see how well that goes", etc., with the little smilies, and condescending tone, it is absolutely an uneducated response. That isn't meant to be derrogatory or demeaning, it's simply that he truly is uneducated in those operations, because as I said, we make pointouts to our ranges/restricted area controlling agencies ALL THE TIME. I don't know what else to call that besides uneducated. He isn't sitting in our chair everyday to see how things really work. What else would you call his response? Deadstick? Bueller? It would be like me telling you how things operate up in your airplane, even though I have no clue and aren't up there every single day.

And thats one place that would probably wonder what you were smoking, were you to try sending a flight through there. So yeah, I'd say to see how it goes with regards to uprange, and thats if they answer your landline. You aren't sitting in a chair up there everyday seeing how things work there, are you?

And how ironic that you'd say my post, with its smile meant to be joking, you call condesceding; when ALL you've been ever since you signed up and have been posting here for a week, is condescending and with an outright jerk-attitude to even your fellow controllers and their jobs/facilities? That there, defines funny. Check a mirror, partner. Because your attitude, demeanor and superiority complex you're displaying here, isn't making you many friends or supporters. As I said, technique only.

 

[Ozelot]

I usually give Medevac whatever they want. I don't give a flying fudge what the next sector has going on. Having said that..our airspace isn't busy/congested enough to not give direct 99% of the time. If someone here balks at it they are just weak/lazy.

 

[ATC Jesus]

And thats one place that would probably wonder what you were smoking, were you to try sending a flight through there. So yeah, I'd say to see how it goes with regards to uprange, and thats if they answer your landline. You aren't sitting in a chair up there everyday seeing how things work there, are you?

I already told you how it works...twice. They take pointouts all the time. There isn't any question as to answering the landline or not.

You aren't sitting in a chair up there everyday seeing how things work there, are you?

Uhhhhhh...we deal with them on a regular basis, so actually...yes. I know exactly how things work between us and them.

...even your fellow controllers and their jobs/facilities? ...isn't making you many friends or supporters.

Didn't come here to make friends or garner support from the other controllers. If I wanted to chat with controllers, I'd go to stuckmic or the NATCA boards. Came here to get the opinion of medevac pilots. If they aren't experiencing issues, or don't care if they get direct routing or not, this isn't a fight we were going to fight.

ALL you've been ever since you signed up and have been posting here for a week

Actually, you might want to check that again...hoss. Nothing condescending about my posts at all, until Genot started chiming in, calling me a troll, saying I'm not a controller, etc., when he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. That's when I started giving it right back to him.

 

[MikeD]

Uhhhhhh...we deal with them on a regular basis, so actually...yes. I know exactly how things work between us and them.

Good. Then you'd know that Dreamland isn't going to just let you tool traffic through 4808N.

Didn't come here to make friends or garner support from the other controllers. If I wanted to chat with controllers, I'd go to stuckmic or the NATCA boards. Came here to get the opinion of medevac pilots. If they aren't experiencing issues, or don't care if they get direct routing or not, this isn't a fight we were going to fight.

It's obvious you're not here to make any friends, because you're doing a good job of making enemies. There are ways to get things done without going on the attack, to include on your fellow ATCers. Or maintain being on the attack. Especially when it comes to telling someone how they need to be running their particular ATC facility, anymore than someone should be telling you how to run yours. You know as well as I do that each has it's own nuances and challenges, and none are really the same. So expecting all of them to do things exactly the same in all respects, apart from the legal, isn't really reality. Each is going to get the job done the best they can commensurate with their particular challenges. Sure, there are individual controllers who are good, ones who aren't, and everything in between; just as there are pilots same. Slam dunking each others' facilities, isn't going to do anything positive.

Actually, you might want to check that again...hoss. Nothing condescending about my posts at all, until Genot started chiming in, calling me a troll, saying I'm not a controller, etc., when he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. That's when I started giving it right back to him.

And following one response to him, the rest of your posts along with those of your collegue, have been pretty condescending as heck. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

 

[DvLzArchAngL]

I'll admit, my original post was condescending.
It was meant to be.
It was rude... cause it was meant to be.
And it sparked 8+ pages of exactly the same behavior by those crying about who they think started it in the first place.
You're hands are far from clean.

Good. Then you'd know that Dreamland isn't going to just let you tool traffic through 4808N.

Let you? LET YOU?
I thought we were a team with egos aside all for the greater good doing everything we can for the common goal? LET!? That's the mentality that sparked this "debate". It's not about "letting" anyone do anything. It's about MAKING it happen. MAKING it work.

I usually give Medevac whatever they want. I don't give a flying fudge what the next sector has going on. Having said that..our airspace isn't busy/congested enough to not give direct 99% of the time. If someone here balks at it they are just weak/lazy.

WORD! Yet I don't see a lynch mob in sight?

We have filed numerous ATSAP's over a long period of time, and yet we still have a recurring issue of piss poor coordination...
We also have to change the culture of our local TMU unit. They are the ones that DON'T WANT us to stop departures, or hold traffic because of a MEDEVAC.
...The culture in this place (and ZNY) needs to change all the way from the top before you see any permanent solution.

Change culture, change piss poor coordination, Change the way we treat them.
"Traffic Permitting" right?

Being told to put them on the DP vector to join because they'll be forced to coordinate with another Demi God is getting old. For that matter, in the next cool kids meeting could you resolve to actually put a plane in need on the right freq or ship them prior to ten miles inside my boundary?

...If I get virtually no notice (no a hand off 20 seconds before the boundary doesn't help) and I have conflicts that have been airborne for hours, well, I'm not clairvoyant. If those conflicts are typically too slow to get out of their own shadow's way let alone an LN hammering in, well...

You have good ideas with coordinating LNs. In fact they're terrific ideas that I'd like to see be policy. Your attitude toward most controllers and your presumption that you know how every facility and facility type works is pretty presumptuous and hurts your credibility though. I almost feel like you want to march into every non 12 saying you suck, in 30 days I'll know this operation better than you.

I'd love to see you scream that noise down here. I can only assume, but based on the approach control we deal with, you only get them 10 miles inside because you don't take them till 3 miles from the boundary. You're not the only game in the sky. If you're not gonna take em till that close, you're gonna have to wait to play. I have other things to do than just sit there and patiently await approach to take a handoff.

You get no notice and that's what this is all about. When we turn around an airport or a VIP comes through, we're told a minimum of 30 minutes to three or four hours ahead of time. This whole thing is about improving the mentality and coordinating better. Not to sit back and play the "I'm too busy, I'll get to you traffic permitting" game.

It's not about telling you we can run your airspace better. We only compared apples to apples in a defensive effort to show you we can, and do deal with similar challenges and do a way better job than those we've had to watch unnecessarily cause delay to these life critical flights.

With enough time to plan, anything is possible. We can and should be doing a better job.
With Life Critical, there is no "Traffic Permitting".

End of story

 

[MikeD]

I'll admit, my original post was condescending.
It was meant to be.
It was rude... cause it was meant to be.
And it sparked 8+ pages of exactly the same behavior by those crying about who they think started it in the first place.
You're hands are far from clean.

You are the only one rude and condesending, by your own admission here, and you keep it going and have from post #1 of yours. And it's not going to really get you anywhere.....attacking your fellow ATCers and their facilities. Figure that out quick, because that's not how business is done around here.

Let you? LET YOU?
I thought we were a team with egos aside all for the greater good doing everything we can for the common goal? LET!? That's the mentality that sparked this "debate". It's not about "letting" anyone do anything. It's about MAKING it happen. MAKING it work.

Yes, "let you". What someone wants to do and what someone can do, are often two very different things. 4808 isn't going to let some VFR civilian plane just tool on through there, because they can't; national security area and all. That's but one, albeit somewhat rare, example. Nothing to do with ego in the sense you're speaking of.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

There's a lot of tool measuring going on in this thread. I wasn't aware controllers engaged in such behavior.

Then again, I now understand what it is you guys are doing "on the landline."

 

[ATC Jesus]

Good. Then you'd know that Dreamland isn't going to just let you tool traffic through 4808N.

The thing is, you can cite all the restricted areas you want, you can come up with the most bizarre examples you want, but at the end of the day, you know we're right. And it kills you. You know that if it were you or your family in the position of needing the medevac, you wouldn't be having this conversation right now. You would be right with us, calling out the controllers, and saying, "How dare they delay my flight!". If you were sitting on the side of the freeway with your brain leaking out of your head from a car accident, you going to be okay with your medevac helicopter being delayed 4-12 minutes (those are real figures, in case you missed it in the thread), because some lazy tower controller somewhere feels like getting the air carriers and business jets in before letting your helicopter depart? You know very well the answer to that question, yet when we call out those same lazy controllers, you get upset. Hmmmmm.

Every controller here knows that if it was their family on board, those EWR departures would magically be stopped. I can guarantee you 100% that the plane would be on the absolute most direct routing possible, and they wouldn't even think twice about it. But because it's someone else's family, nobody cares? Way to earn those 6-figures!!

Sometimes you need to be a little condescending to get your point across, especially when it's quite literally a matter of life and death, and a lot of people just plain don't seem to care. People need to be held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. There should be a review of every medevac flight out there. The tapes should be pulled, and if you could have provided expeditious handling and didn't, you should be called to the carpet. You should be sitting in the Chief's office, having to explain to a bunch of suits how come you were unable to provide expeditious handling.

Hopefully we'll get there soon. It's going to be a long road I'm sure, but we'll get there.

Just something to think about. Enjoy your Sunday everyone! I'll be at work making almost $2/minute. Hopefully there will be no medevac flights that come through because well...I just don't make enough money to provide them with expeditous handling. Don't want to actually have to earn my pay.

 

[DvLzArchAngL]

You are the only one rude and condesending, by your own admission here, and you keep it going and have from post #1 of yours. And it's not going to really get you anywhere.....attacking your fellow ATCers and their facilities. Figure that out quick, because that's not how business is done around here.

If attacking my fellow "brothers", which is such a convenient term when you want to claim unity, is necessary then it's game on. I could care less about how "business is done around here." Aside from my original post I haven't touched this thread on my RDO's. Only reason I even found it was via a google search for "7110.65 Medevac." And magically it led to someone in my own facility exhibiting the same behavior we've been atsaping. Go figure.

I didn't come here to pick a fight, I came to prove a point. Thanks for validating what we've been claiming to be procedure here.

Yes, "let you". What someone wants to do and what someone can do, are often two very different things. 4808 isn't going to let some VFR civilian plane just tool on through there, because they can't; national security area and all. That's but one, albeit somewhat rare, example. Nothing to do with ego in the sense you're speaking of.

The ego I'm talking about is when there's no traffic and no reason. It's done just because "what if I have traffic", "what if I have to spin someone", "what if this make my sector go red", "what if I have to have approach build me a hole", "what if the guy after me wont take it", what if, what if, what if?

They make phraseology for your SUA buddys. It's called "Point Out, Request Approval to Enter, or Request Real Time Release of ???" for MedEvac Air Craft. If they say Unable, according to the book, workload permitting they MUST give a reason. If it's a damn good one then I'll concede. If not, guess what, be prepared to stand accountable. You're not covered by ATSAP if it's willful disregard and they will get to the bottom of why you caused undue delay to our #2 priority.

The point we've been trying to prove here is that more often than not and as for the last 45ish days there hasn't been any of those justifiable reasons. It's all been a lazy, unwilling to make it work attitude and we're done being a part of it. Something's gotta give.

People need to be held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. There should be a review of every medevac flight out there. The tapes should be pulled, and if you could have provided expeditious handling and didn't, you should be called to the carpet. You should be sitting in the Chief's office, having to explain to a bunch of suits how come you were unable to provide expeditious handling.

Hopefully we'll get there soon. It's going to be a long road I'm sure, but we'll get there.

In the age of the ATSAP defense this will never happen unless willful disregard is proven.

Unfortunately to get this to change it will take pressure from the medical community and someone in Congress. The FAA will never sign off without being made to by the clients themselves. Policy is only made through one of two things, Death (or the possibility) or Money.

 

[MikeD]

The thing is, you can cite all the restricted areas you want, you can come up with the most bizarre examples you want, but at the end of the day, you know we're right. And it kills you. You know that if it were you or your family in the position of needing the medevac, you wouldn't be having this conversation right now. You would be right with us, calling out the controllers, and saying, "How dare they delay my flight!". If you were sitting on the side of the freeway with your brain leaking out of your head from a car accident, you going to be okay with your medevac helicopter being delayed 4-12 minutes (those are real figures, in case you missed it in the thread), because some lazy tower controller somewhere feels like getting the air carriers and business jets in before letting your helicopter depart? You know very well the answer to that question, yet when we call out those same lazy controllers, you get upset. Hmmmmm.

It doesn't kill me one bit, your stance on the issue. I happen to agree with you. What I don't agree with is your delivery and demeanor here, part and parcel from the issue itself. As well as the fact that there are times when priority can't always be given willy-nilly, no matter how much you want to tell another controller how he needs to do his job. Are there controllers who specifically don't allow medevac's priority? I haven't seen it personally, but if you say it goes on and you've seen it, I have no reason to disbelieve you. I just know that even emergencies don't always get full priority, and I cited why in another post when I had an emergency back in my jet days that I was #7 airborne IFE, and had to go hold to await their recovery; as well as the other aircraft I heard once that had to end up recovering in the flow, because that would actually be the most expeditious method to recover him, rather than clear the entire area when it was IMC out.

Insofar as helicopters, I never get a takeoff clearance anyway from a tower, very rare. Usually just a "depart at own risk"; but with the number of towers out there, it may not surprise me what goes on positive or negative.

Im just glad, after talking with you on here and seeing the war amongst them, that I never have to work with ARTCCs or RAPCONs anymore. Ever.

Every controller here knows that if it was their family on board, those EWR departures would magically be stopped. I can guarantee you 100% that the plane would be on the absolute most direct routing possible, and they wouldn't even think twice about it. But because it's someone else's family, nobody cares? Way to earn those 6-figures!!

Again, I don't work their facilities or in ATC, so I can't say what they can or can't do; but I don't you can necessarily say what they can or can't do, anymore than they can tell you the samw with your facility. I would imagine the unique operational nuances don't allow for that.

Sometimes you need to be a little condescending to get your point across, especially when it's quite literally a matter of life and death, and a lot of people just plain don't seem to care. People need to be held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. There should be a review of every medevac flight out there. The tapes should be pulled, and if you could have provided expeditious handling and didn't, you should be called to the carpet. You should be sitting in the Chief's office, having to explain to a bunch of suits how come you were unable to provide expeditious handling.

Hopefully we'll get there soon. It's going to be a long road I'm sure, but we'll get there.

Just something to think about. Enjoy your Sunday everyone! I'll be at work making almost $2/minute. Hopefully there will be no medevac flights that come through because well...I just don't make enough money to provide them with expeditous handling. Don't want to actually have to earn my pay.

I say do as much as is operationally possible to assist a medevac, when they need the assistance. I find it surprising that there are those who actively don't or don't want to. At the same time, I would understand if there were situations where it's not possible in some situations and in some airspaces. Yes, there are some rare times when direct isn't possible, and no there are indeed Special Use Airspace areas that will tell everyone to piss off, medevac or not, for national security reasons. Those I can understand. Sucks, but that is what it is. Either way, the first sentence of this paragraph still stands as my position.

 

[MikeD]

If attacking my fellow "brothers", which is such a convenient term when you want to claim unity, is necessary then it's game on. I could care less about how "business is done around here." Aside from my original post I haven't touched this thread on my RDO's. Only reason I even found it was via a google search for "7110.65 Medevac." And magically it led to someone in my own facility exhibiting the same behavior we've been atsaping. Go figure.

I didn't come here to pick a fight, I came to prove a point. Thanks for validating what we've been claiming to be procedure here.

"Business is done" in terms of here on this board: that being show some good demeanor and not constantly attack people as a general nature. That's the business Im talking about, not how things are done in and around NATCA and ATC. Thats the whole separate subject matter that this thread is about.

The ego I'm talking about is when there's no traffic and no reason. It's done just because "what if I have traffic", "what if I have to spin someone", "what if this make my sector go red", "what if I have to have approach build me a hole", "what if the guy after me wont take it", what if, what if, what if?

Completely agree with you here.

They make phraseology for your SUA buddys. It's called "Point Out, Request Approval to Enter, or Request Real Time Release of ???" for MedEvac Air Craft. If they say Unable, according to the book, workload permitting they MUST give a reason. If it's a damn good one then I'll concede. If not, guess what, be prepared to stand accountable. You're not covered by ATSAP if it's willful disregard and they will get to the bottom of why you caused undue delay to our #2 priority.

Agree, and my only point is that sometimes there are some SUA places (rare, and probably few and far between) which will invoke some sort of "national security" reason. Fine, and I agree that at least you asked/inquired and made the college try to get the priority for the medevac flight. Beyond that, there's not much you can do.

The point we've been trying to prove here is that more often than not and as for the last 45ish days there hasn't been any of those justifiable reasons. It's all been a lazy, unwilling to make it work attitude and we're done being a part of it. Something's gotta give.

And if that's the case (and as I told the other poster, if you've seen it happen, I believe you...no reason to disbelieve you); then I agree with you that it's a foul, that kind of laziness or desire to simply not even make a reasonable attempt to accomodate and give priority. Totally agree with you.

In the age of the ATSAP defense this will never happen unless willful disregard is proven.

Unfortunately to get this to change it will take pressure from the medical community and someone in Congress. The FAA will never sign off without being made to by the clients themselves. Policy is only made through one of two things, Death (or the possibility) or Money.

Your last sentence unfortunately applies to too many areas of aviation: Airlines, military, and others; as well as probably the FAA itself in some ways. Sad, but true.

 

[Dugie8]

I've been driving medevac for the last 7 years. I don't expect "direct" (even though I can't get my guys to file routes but that's a different thread). The folks who get hauled around in fixed wing aren't so critical that a few minutes extra because of routing is going to do any harm. Hell the most dangerous part of the flight are the ambulance rides on either end

As the pilot I appreciate the fervor at which you are approaching this but in reality it isn't a necessity. Rotor wing I can't speak to. I don't have a death wish so I don't fly those worthless things.

That all being said; aviation needs more folks like you guys who are willing to make waves and push for things to be better. This industry is just too populated with folks who just shrug their shoulders and "whadda ya gonna do".

 

[Boris Badenov]

The folks who get hauled around in fixed wing aren't so critical that a few minutes extra because of routing is going to do any harm.

Well, mostly. Like, the vast, vast majority, anyway. I've had maybe two kids where I was told that we needed to get there RIGHT NOW, and one of those had more to do with potential complications than imminent death. That said, I think some of the more remote/rural programs get more urgent cases with more regularity, as the distances involved are simply too great for a helo. Of course they're also far less likely to have trouble with ATC routing...hell they're lucky if they have radar service at all!

Just meant as an aside...in general I agree with you entirely.

 

[Dugie8]

Keep in mind I can't get into anything much shorter than 5500 feet so that skews my data a bit.

 

[MikeD]

Rotor wing I can't speak to. I don't have a death wish so I don't fly those worthless things.

Burn the heretic!