Medevac

[Bernoulli Fan]

It's indicative of the cultural "Arm Chair Jesus" mentality that ZLA and SoCaL controllers have. When I found out this came from you and I took my shot, you walked away. Hence the "DB" remark. I don't personally know you but I've seen that attitude a thousand times. I used this forum instead of tomorrow night because this is where the MedEvac's are. I've got a Bar to discuss this with you. I've only got a forum to get it out to them.

I guess we'll hash out the personal stuff tonight; the only further thing I'll say here is I have never experienced the situations you describe in my area. I call Oakland, tell them Medevac is direct to the IAF, they say ok every time. I call our SoCal sectors and ask what they can approve, they say direct to the airport every time. I had never even heard of this issue until two days ago, and it is a shame. It would also be a shame if your venom drove away your allies before they came to be.

 

[DvLzArchAngL]

I guess we'll hash out the personal stuff tonight; the only further thing I'll say here is I have never experienced the situations you describe in my area. I call Oakland, tell them Medevac is direct to the IAF, they say ok every time. I call our SoCal sectors and ask what they can approve, they say direct to the airport every time. I had never even heard of this issue until two days ago, and it is a shame. It would also be a shame if your venom drove away your allies before they came to be.

It's almost funny that you're still missing the entire point we've tried to make and how it brought us here in the first place.

If you were flashed a handoff that was in compliance with your load

 

[ATC Jesus]

"Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They invent. They imagine. They heal. They explore. They create. They inspire. They route medevacs direct to the airport. They push the human race forward.

Maybe they have to be crazy. How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art? Or sit in silence and hear a song that’s never been written? Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels? Or look at a busy scope and see medevacs direct to the airport? While some see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."

 

[genot]

You've obviously never flown through the area's you moaned about because those "center puke" controllers provide approach control services all day, every day from the Coast to the Grand Canyon. And don't forget who spoon feeds all those shiny little airplanes into a line for SoCaL Approach. That is after we've apparently only read the weather and got ready to hand them off. Since we just say hi and goodbye at LA Center.

Come take a tour and I'll personally drive the BUS and let you look out the window at all the controllers thrown under it for not standing up for Medevac’s.

Yeah, I've flown through them. I know the issues locally. I'm sure ARTCC guys do a bang up job of approach work when called upon. Let me bring you down to reality though. You have never as an ARTCC controller run trips or quads (I can't even get my center to buy off on visual or 8 MIT 10 knot overtake on Cessnas). You've never ghosted targets down SOIA or CRDA. I'm sure working podunk "approach" is the same. I once worked out a ground issue on an RTR, but I've never claimed to to a tower controller. Let me know when you're asked to work arrivals down to one hundredth of a mile of standard separation. Yep you spoon fed arrivals. What do you call your MIT restrictions? Point is, your job isn't mine and mine isn't yours. Saying you are as efficient as approach, is pretty bold. I'd absolutely suck in the Center world.

I have no desire to work center, so no need for the tour. Especially if coworkers internet stalk and start inexplicable fights. I'm man enough to tell people they suck to their face. I don't need to drag out a breakroom argument to the interwebs to feel like a hero.

 

[MikeD]

PAR final controller is where it's at. Talking one down to the runway at 100-1/4, +/- 25 feet of runway centerline; now that's some work right there.

 

[GolfChuck]

PAR final controller is where it's at. Talking one down to the runway at 100-1/4, +/- 25 feet of runway centerline; now that's some work right there.

Have a co-worker who did that at KNQX not that long ago before he was hired by the FAA, not a job that I'd want.

To add to the conversation, and I touched on this before. There are cases where "traffic permitting" does come into play when handling medevacs. We don't use STARs from my sector into the N.90 airports, but any medevacs still get the pref routing. For EWR and satellites it never gets any better than RBV V249 METRO which is the same thing everyone gets as long as the warning areas are cold. If the warning areas are hot I might be able to get a point out with the military to go through the warning area instead of around it, but that is about it. Medevacs going to BED, PVD, BDL, etc. get direct. TEB and HPN? fuggedaboutit, not from the southeast anyway.

 

[ATC Jesus]

I don't need to drag out a breakroom argument to the interwebs to feel like a hero.

It's not about dragging out a break room argument or feeling like a hero; it's about changing how we do business...for the better. It's a serious problem that needs to be fixed. I know that's beyond you.

As was explained to you multiple times already, the reason we brought the "breakroom argument" to this forum, is that we wanted to hear from the medevac pilots themselves, not the controllers, and we knew there would be plenty of them here. We wanted to get their opinions on direct routing, etc. I can tell you that this issue has been upgraded to "urgent" by the ATSAP ERC, and they will be looking very closely into the poor handling of these medevac flights. As an interesting side note, they gave me a stunning piece of information, in that according to the NASA reports, even medevac helicopters are being delayed an average of 4-12 minutes unnecessarily, JUST ON THE GROUND AT THE AIRPORT!!! 4-12 minutes and somebody can be dead! But some tower controller doesn't want to get off his ass and actually provide a service for these guys.

So go back into your hole, work your ghost targets, collect your ATC-7 paycheck and not give a damn, and we'll fight the fight to actually change the system for the better.

 

[deadstick]

As an interesting side note, they gave me a stunning piece of information, in that according to the NASA reports, even medevac helicopters are being delayed an average of 4-12 minutes unnecessarily, JUST ON THE GROUND AT THE AIRPORT!!! 4-12 minutes and somebody can be dead!

This is true. At one time, there was an EMS line to FSS. Now that number just puts you in the pool. So there I was, 2 engines turning, #1 ready to blast off for a 25 min flight to the city, 2SM 003OVC, on hold for 20 MINUTES, being transferred 4 times, as the national clearance delivery system FAILED. First was in Dallas, "you're where? hold on..." Next one "I'm not sure why you get sent to me...hold on...." I am not joking. This was pathetic. I really do not fault the ATC folks I was taking to. The system is crap since they closed down all the FSSs. Local knowledge with weather use to be golden with a briefer.

The saving grace to this cluster was ZKC. Finally airborne, I told the controller what just happened and he gave me 2 direct phone numbers to call if anything like that happens ever again.

 

[TripSix]

So go back into your hole, work your ghost targets, collect your ATC-7 paycheck and not give a damn, and we'll fight the fight to actually change the system for the better.

Just an observation, but...

In a quest to fix a broken system willed with lack of regard, do you really think treating people who are part of that system with such disregard is part of the solution?

Rhetorical...

Keep in mind, in many parts of the country the issues you have described in this thread do not happen. It is very likely the resistance you perceive to be receiving is lack of ability to actually grasp the severity of the issue you're having coupled with the thought process of, "well just fix it." Just like every damn thing else in this system, it's up to us to fix it - because we sure aren't getting any help. I'm sure you can give just as many examples as I can of things we've made work (or fixed) as a collective, on our own.

Everyone has unique experience and viewpoints to bring to the table. When an issue is perceived to be systematic, the more information you can gather the better. And that's really, really hard to do with a tape measure in your hand.

Just a thought...

 

[deadstick]

I can tell you that this issue has been upgraded to "urgent" by the ATSAP ERC, and they will be looking very closely into the poor handling of these medevac flights.

I have no idea so I thought I'd ask. What is the significance of it being designated "urgent?"

 

[z987k]

This is true. At one time, there was an EMS line to FSS. Now that number just puts you in the pool. So there I was, 2 engines turning, #1 ready to blast off for a 25 min flight to the city, 2SM 003OVC, on hold for 20 MINUTES, being transferred 4 times, as the national clearance delivery system FAILED. First was in Dallas, "you're where? hold on..." Next one "I'm not sure why you get sent to me...hold on...." I am not joking. This was pathetic. I really do not fault the ATC folks I was taking to. The system is crap since they closed down all the FSSs. Local knowledge with weather use to be golden with a briefer.

The saving grace to this cluster was ZKC. Finally airborne, I told the controller what just happened and he gave me 2 direct phone numbers to call if anything like that happens ever again.

We've got a phone number to a center desk for ZSE. Don't need it for AZA. Of note, the FSS are locals. No Lockheed martin.

Real conversation with FSS on the phone the other day - Ya, this is XXX, I'm trying to get the weather for ABC, but the phone to the ASOS doesn't seem to be working it's not reporting anything online.
Oh, ya that went down yesterday hold on, I've got a friend at a pump station with a company wx station at it just about 4 miles north of there....
Minute later - Ya, he say's it's broken around 4000, variable winds and altimeter is xxxx.
That is service.

 

[ATC Jesus]

In a quest to fix a broken system willed with lack of regard, do you really think treating people who are part of that system with such disregard is part of the solution?

You must have missed the nice little welcome he gave me, the ATC troll comments, the questions that I was even an actual controller. He is one of the old crusty controllers who doesn't give a damn and is just part of the problem. I'm sure he's on his way out. I've written him off pages ago, so no, I don't really care. Not at all interested in getting those types of people involved.

I have no idea so I thought I'd ask. What is the significance of it being designated "urgent?"

It "hopefully" means that they're potentially putting this issue in front of others. That's what they did with the presidential movement stuff I ATSAP'ed a couple months ago.

 

[TripSix]

You must have missed the nice little welcome he gave me, the ATC troll comments, the questions that I was even an actual controller. He is one of the old crusy controllers who doesn't give a damn and is just part of the problem. I'm sure he's on his way out. I've written him off pages ago, so no, I don't really care. Not at all interested in getting those types of people involved.

Fair enough. No, I didn't miss them.

Granted, when you mentioned something along the lines of approach controllers being monitors that kicked back and issued "descend via" clearances all day - I thought perhaps you may have had a few too many.

 

[Boris Badenov]

National Clearance is a cluster of epic proportions. I can't count the number of times I've been on the ground at some podunk airfield, called them from the BACK OF THE AMBULANCE, proceeded to load the patient, start the aircraft, and taxi to the runway without receiving a clearance. It's beyond absurd. Of course, the other 10% of the time, you call from the back of the ambulance and recieve a void time of 2 1/2 minutes from now. At 3am. In like Kennet, MO.

*nerdrage*

 

[ATC Jesus]

Granted, when you mentioned something along the lines of approach controllers being monitors that kicked back and issued "descend via" clearances all day - I thought perhaps you may have had a few too many.

Ha! I probably did have a few too many that night, but that said, that is literally what the approach controllers we work with do...or want to do. On the LA Arrivals, for example, the a/c check in and Socal gives them, "Descend via the RIIVR2 Arrival, rwy 25L. At RIIVR, cleared ILS rwy 25L approach", all in one sentence, and aside from minor speed adjustments here and there (shouldn't need many, the planes come 10 miles-in-trail from us...they get pissed off if they aren't), that's literally all they do. They give the a/c to a final approach controller, who again just makes minor speed adjustments (the a/c has already been cleared for the approach, he doesn't even have to give that), and then they're off to Tower. The busiest approach control facility in the world, and that's literally what they do all day long...at least the areas we deal with regularly. Some obviously work harder than that and do more, but these are the folks we deal with every single day...the same folks who won't accept medevac flights on direct routings.

To the folks having issues with FSS, that unfortunately isn't really something I can give to the ATSAP folk, or I would be happy to. I don't really have standing on that issue since they aren't controllers. I highly urge you guys to file the NASA reports though. The stuff you're describing is absolutely ridiculous. I realize the 7110.65 tells us to send you back to flight service and file a flight plan when you check in asking to pick up IFR, but I would be tempted just to depart VFR (where you can of course, and when company allows) and just pick up your IFR in the air. I realize there are some carmudgeon controllers out there (some even in this very thread!!), who would probably send you to flight service, but at least you're in the air and flying toward your destination.

 

[deadstick]

To the folks having issues with FSS, that unfortunately isn't really something I can give to the ATSAP folk, or I would be happy to. I don't really have standing on that issue since they aren't controllers. I highly urge you guys to file the NASA reports though. The stuff you're describing is absolutely ridiculous. I realize the 7110.65 tells us to send you back to flight service and file a flight plan when you check in asking to pick up IFR, but I would be tempted just to depart VFR (where you can of course, and when company allows) and just pick up your IFR in the air. I realize there are some carmudgeon controllers out there (some even in this very thread!!), who would probably send you to flight service, but at least you're in the air and flying toward your destination.

Thanks for the info.

This reminded me of another issue with ATC procedures. For our 135, we have to have CTAF, an approach, and AWOS at the airports to operate IFR. If there's no AWOS, we can't file to/from there.

So, options?

In the past, I file to another airport, but put the VFR destination airport in the remarks/routing and ask for a descent the MEA. It gets real interesting when there's a 120d change in course in the route. If I can maintain VFR and acquire the field, I cancel and go in VFR (with an internal VFR flight plan). If not, I keep on truckin' to the filed destination.

It's confusing as heck to try and explain this to the controllers. Many times they say "cleared direct XYZ" which is changing our IFR destination to the field with no weather. That's no good. Trying to explain I need the filed destination to be the same over the VHF is just as difficult. Or we get the "please state the reason for your change of destination" routine when, for the IFR flight plan, it hasn't.

There HAS to be an easier way. Luckily, I do very few flights like that now, but that scenario has come up a couple of time in the last year.

Ideas?

 

[N90-EWR]

Have a co-worker who did that at KNQX not that long ago before he was hired by the FAA, not a job that I'd want.

To add to the conversation, and I touched on this before. There are cases where "traffic permitting" does come into play when handling medevacs. We don't use STARs from my sector into the N.90 airports, but any medevacs still get the pref routing. For EWR and satellites it never gets any better than RBV V249 METRO which is the same thing everyone gets as long as the warning areas are cold. If the warning areas are hot I might be able to get a point out with the military to go through the warning area instead of around it, but that is about it. Medevacs going to BED, PVD, BDL, etc. get direct. TEB and HPN? fuggedaboutit, not from the southeast anyway.

There's several reasons why its just not feasable to send Medevacs from the southeast direct TEB, or HPN. Those big airports called EWR, LGA, and JFK kinda get in the way, and the problem is...its not one, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but usually 6 or 7 different sectors, and controllers, working different streams of traffic, and the sheer volume of traffic, complexity, and coordination required makes it extremely impractical. You would have to stop EWR and TEB departures, as well as make a gap to both the LGA and EWR flow to cut you right through. We do what we can, when we can, and as soon as the situation allows, we do send them direct, and we do keep them speed up, and we do make a hole in the sequence, but you have to come over and see it for yourself to understand the degree of difficulty involved with coming from the southeast, specially when we're landing the southwest flow.

 

[z987k]

Ideas?

135.4 and the relevant opspec... if you have 2 pilots.

 

[GolfChuck]

There's several reasons why its just not feasable to send Medevacs from the southeast direct TEB, or HPN. Those big airports called EWR, LGA, and JFK kinda get in the way, and the problem is...its not one, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but usually 6 or 7 different sectors, and controllers, working different streams of traffic, and the sheer volume of traffic, complexity, and coordination required makes it extremely impractical. You would have to stop EWR and TEB departures, as well as make a gap to both the LGA and EWR flow to cut you right through. We do what we can, when we can, and as soon as the situation allows, we do send them direct, and we do keep them speed up, and we do make a hole in the sequence, but you have to come over and see it for yourself to understand the degree of difficulty involved with coming from the southeast, specially when we're landing the southwest flow.

Preach it! Some of the posts from our west coast brethren imply that all medevacs should get direct all the time.

 

[z987k]

Preach it! Some of the posts from our west coast brethren imply that all medevacs should get direct all the time.

All I ask, is if I ask it of you on the radio, please do. That means I do in fact reaaaaaaaaaaly need it.

 

[genot]

Registering for the sole intent of ganging up on someone on the internet you see in person pretty frequently isn't exactly the best way to get your point across. That's just a life lesson. Being confrontational with someone in your profession who is disgusted you can't keep your professional arguments, well professional, that's not helping. Starting your crusade by bashing 70% of your profession's work force because of your myopic views also probably isn't a good start.

Clearly neither of you have been in this profession long enough or have diverse experience enough to know that despite all that you know, you aren't certified in the facility you're complaining about. You have no idea as to the specifics of that operation and don't know what is actually safe.

Obviously you're cowboys. I mean absolutely John Wayne and this "Crusty level 7 controller on his way out" (you couldn't be farther from the truth) bows to you. I've broken nearly ever rule I could in the .65 when the situation dictated, but yeah driving traffic deep into someone else's airspace without a point out or handoff, that'll show em.

Why follow 2-1-1 when 2-1-2 is there? I mean worst case scenario a few hundred die in a mid air right? I've never personally done anything other than direct the airport with an LN unless extreme situations warranted it. You're advocating just driving them is like an ambulance driver just plowing through a clogged intersection at high speed. The patient won't live if they never see the hospital and how many did they kill in the process?