May 2008 CLT Runway Incursion Update
- Thread starter BobDDuck
- Start date
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
You still haven't explained how it was a loss of SA on the RJ crew's part.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Needs some work yet.
Not going to waste my time and effort on that bridge. It can burn for all I care. When you start throwing around personal insults in PM's because he doesn't have the same beliefs on CAP's activations I could really care less.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
They taxied right past the traffic that would be positioning behind them. A Hawk-eye which I'm guessing is military. (MikeD?) If a controller told a aircraft to line up & wait
)) and it wasn't the aircraft right behind me I hope I could put 1+1 together and figure out that something isn't correct.
joliet
New Member
They taxied right past the traffic that would be positioning behind them. A Hawk-eye which I'm guessing is military. (MikeD?) If a controller told a aircraft to line up & wait
They were already in their take off roll when the Pilatus was told to position and hold on 18L.
As soon as the controller says Bluestreak 390 again after being told to position and hold on the runway, the crew knows they are going to be told to take off, the PF has his hands on the power levers, and they are set to T/O power and the aircraft is accelerating as the PNF/PM reads back the take off clearance. That's how it works when you are in position waiting to go.
So again, how is this a loss of SA for the CRJ crew?
Also, Hawkeye was/is the callsign Wachovia's flight department used. Not military.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
They taxied right past the traffic that would be positioning behind them. A Hawk-eye which I'm guessing is military. (MikeD?) If a controller told a aircraft to line up & wait
James like every 121/135 pilot in this thread is trying to tell you a lot is going on from the time you are at the hold short line to V1. Also keep in mind not all pilots are airplane geeks, so maybe they don't know what a PC-12 is or who Hawk-eye is, and one more thing is CLT will line planes up on C11.
I'm not talking about that particular individual. More of a general comment. Feel free to disregard.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
:yeahthat:
Jhugz, you really have a lot to learn before spouting off about a situation which you clearly don't understand nor care to..
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Saw the animation and it's hard to fault anyone other than the Controller for what happened.
After reading this thread though, I must say that someone on here suffers from acute "diarrhea of the mouth" or in this case "diarrhea of the keyboard".
Until you've flown in the 121/135 world and know how busy things can actually be, and that some of the things you've learned in flight training don't necessarily apply in the 121/135 world...then you really can't comment on them.
After reading this thread though, I must say that someone on here suffers from acute "diarrhea of the mouth" or in this case "diarrhea of the keyboard".
Until you've flown in the 121/135 world and know how busy things can actually be, and that some of the things you've learned in flight training don't necessarily apply in the 121/135 world...then you really can't comment on them.
SFCC/UND
Well-Known Member
Wow, scary stuff. Kind of reminds me instructing at RVS, where the pattern is full on both runways and you got students that don't speak good English. What always scared me is when they don't say the runway numbers. I was on final for 19L and I was helping a student with the checklist, then I heard a voice say turning base after the Cessna. I had a bad feeling, since he didn't say which runway or which cessna. Looked up and lo and behold there was a Spartan airplane turning right in front of me. So I can imagine the CRJ guys busy with applying the power and calling out airspeed. I haven't been to this airport before, but the CRJ was almost halfway down the runway by the time the PC-12 was turning onto the runway.
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
I was going to stay out of this, but watch the video again. The tower controller doesn't give a Pilautus position and hold. She ONLY says the tail number. Did you see the tail number on that corporate jet you were in front of?
jhugz
Well-Known Member
You're correct. I didn't notice that. In my eyes now the RJ crew did nothing wrong.
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I have had bad luck with the controllers at CLT. I've only had to perform a handful of go-arounds in my airline career (~ 3.5 years), but two of them were at CLT, and both were the controller's fault. On one of them we were on a visual to 36L (now 36C), cleared to land, when at 500' AGL the tower cleared a CRJ who wasn't even in position for takeoff right in front of us. For some reason they took the clearance and we had to go-around. We then had to sidestep to avoid them. If the new 36L had been open, we could have been in a tight spot. After we flew around the pattern tower cleared us to land and again almost cleared somebody ahead of us before correcting themselves. It seems like every time I go there I have issues with their controllers.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
You might want to watch it again too. TWR most definitely "did" tell the PC "18L Position and hold."
I am intimately familiar with ops at CLT. From the T/O end of 18L you cannot see over the "crown" in rwy 23 where it crosses 18L. The PC would be hidden until the RJ got very close to the intersection. It is very common for the TWR to stack traffic at C12 and A for 18L departures. It seems pretty clear that the controller was thinking the PC was next in line at C12. Usually they stack 18L at A /C12 and launch them in the correct order.
ATC lost SA.....100%
The PC lost SA too because he should have heard the RJ cleared and hadn't passed A yet. The RJ, probably heard the PC's position and hold clearance, but thought it was behind him (plausible lost SA).
Very scary to watch.
Glad it didn't turn into this. It is one of the ones that really pushed incursion awareness.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/23/u...keoff-in-st-louis-killing-2.html?pagewanted=1
http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_mar96.pdf
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
It would have been the same with the new 36L because you would have been using it instead of old 36L/36C. The new runway will takeover west side ops from 18C/36C.
Doug: Can you extend or eliminate the ":15 min rule" for editing? It doesn't take much to get distracted around the house. By the time we get back the "admin warning" has popped up. Occasionally we type something we wished we hadn't or posted something inaccurate and there is no way to correct it.
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you're trying to point out. The controller clearly said "N409DR,..., 18L position and hold"
I was pointing out that she did NOT say "Pilautus 409DR..."
Jugz was saying the CRJ pilots should have realized that the pilautus wasn't the plane behind them in line, but since the controller didn't give the aircraft type when she cleared 9DR to position and hold, the CRJ pilots couldn't have made that assessment.
Baronguy18
Well-Known Member
WOW