May 2008 CLT Runway Incursion Update

[ATC RET 2003]

Having worked at CLT long ago, and being unable to remember what the intersection takeoff procedures used to be, I did a Google search for 'CLT ATCT SOP' and came up with this NTSB report.

Hey guys I apologize if this is a stupid question but what happens after an event like this. It sounded as if she was sending the crew back to 18 (Holding short of 23) to take off again. Would you not cancel the flight and an investigation ensue? Or would you just collect yourself and go ahead and depart?

The flight wouldn't be cancelled, but would have been delayed. I'd definately be fililng out paperwork and calling the company, after parking the aircraft. Possibly on a remote ramp. Depending on weight, speed, and braking you may also need to consult your brake cooling charts. The last thing you would want is not enough braking ability for a second abort.

From the report:

After clearing runway 18L, the pilots of JIA390 stopped the aircraft again and completed the quick reference handbook (QRH) rejected takeoff checklist and communicated with the flight attendant, passengers, CLT ATC, PSA maintenance and dispatch. The flight crew waited the required brake cooling time and then taxied to the approach end of runway 18L and completed the flight to EWN without further incident.

IDK how the flight strips are set up. perhaps the PC12 was the next strip and it didn't indicate that they were holding short downfield?

Only other thing I can think of is maybe ground never told Local about the intersection departure, that may mitigate her blame somewhat but not all the way.

At the time of the incident, CLT had both a strip-marking requirement and a verbal coordination procedure with LC for intersection departures. According to the report, GC did both.

 

[Gonzo]

Any traffic holding short should be noted before the roll if possible and an eye should be kept on them. Which to their credit sounded like it happened and prevented a disaster. Just because their actions did prevent an accident doesn't mean they are free from critique. Just like I along w/ others made comments about the sterile through 10 on the Hudson Landing.

Your first time in ATL or DFW I will need you to keep eyes on all 5-15 jets holding short at the same time at the same time, being heads down from the time you are at the hold short line all the way to V1.

 

[cloudman]

I know I am probably opening a can of worms on this, but where was the media firestorm over this and the release of this from the FAA?

Two pilots overshoot a destination and are put up against the firing squad. This controller nearly collided two planes. Where is the media calling for nationwide overhaul of the ATC and airport operations? Was the controllers face plastered over the news?

Sorry for the rant and if I am out of line I apologize.


CB

There was a short media blitz that after noon and the next morning. I've taken that intersection departure before and the hump does not hinder the sight line that bad. Besides, the PC-12 sits tall, they should have seen the other birds lights. My motto look and listen then look and listen some more.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I do have self control champ but since you don't drop me another PM and turn your epaulets back around.

I'm not trying to blame the RJ solely I just don't feel he is free of blame. He taxied past the traffic that would have positioned behind and I believe it was a Hawkeye(?) followed by a Corporate Jet.

If I'm taxing past the traffic that will be behind me and I don't see a PC-12 then I hope to hell I would realize what is going on if they get a call telling them to position and hold. 1+1=2. No PC-12 behind me so where the hell is it?

Any traffic holding short should be noted before the roll if possible and an eye should be kept on them. Which to their credit sounded like it happened and prevented a disaster. Just because their actions did prevent an accident doesn't mean they are free from critique. Just like I along w/ others made comments about the sterile through 10 on the Hudson Landing.

Hey, seeing you continuously cry about a PM makes it all worth it.

Your premise that the RJ crew trusted the controller 110% is incorrect. You have/do blow things completely out of proportion.

I'm sure you can read above the valid statements of some of the members about the improper phraseology and the crew's inability to be alerted to the aircraft taking position and hold. They had their "heads on a swivel" or whatever you mentioned and they stopped the flight and avoided the accident. :dunno: I don't even need to flip my epaulets around to read/listen and understand that.

 

[jtrain609]

I do have self control champ but since you don't drop me another PM and turn your epaulets back around.

I'm not trying to blame the RJ solely I just don't feel he is free of blame. He taxied past the traffic that would have positioned behind and I believe it was a Hawkeye(?) followed by a Corporate Jet.

If I'm taxing past the traffic that will be behind me and I don't see a PC-12 then I hope to hell I would realize what is going on if they get a call telling them to position and hold. 1+1=2. No PC-12 behind me so where the hell is it?

Any traffic holding short should be noted before the roll if possible and an eye should be kept on them. Which to their credit sounded like it happened and prevented a disaster. Just because their actions did prevent an accident doesn't mean they are free from critique. Just like I along w/ others made comments about the sterile through 10 on the Hudson Landing.

Did you see the angle that they got into the line up at?

Ever been at that airport, know where that is?

Ever ran a taxi, before takeoff and takeoff flow in that period of time while you might well be trying to start an engine?

I haven't done it in a CRJ, but I've done exactly this in the ERJ and let me tell you, it's crapholes and elbows getting it all ready to go while the captain is getting us up to the runway.

It's not as simple as you'd like to think, and you're digging yourself a hole right now.

 

[DL31082]

I do have self control champ but since you don't drop me another PM and turn your epaulets back around.

I'm not trying to blame the RJ solely I just don't feel he is free of blame. He taxied past the traffic that would have positioned behind and I believe it was a Hawkeye(?) followed by a Corporate Jet.

If I'm taxing past the traffic that will be behind me and I don't see a PC-12 then I hope to hell I would realize what is going on if they get a call telling them to position and hold. 1+1=2. No PC-12 behind me so where the hell is it?

Any traffic holding short should be noted before the roll if possible and an eye should be kept on them. Which to their credit sounded like it happened and prevented a disaster. Just because their actions did prevent an accident doesn't mean they are free from critique. Just like I along w/ others made comments about the sterile through 10 on the Hudson Landing.

I think your a little bit out of your league here. I'm just a CFI too and its easy for us to keep track of all the traffic taxiing up. We have want maybe 5 departures max waiting. Fly over the top of ATL. They have 10-15 per departure runway and thats just the ones waiting for full length. The CRJ crew did a great job in my view. The PC-12 crew should have done a better job and the controller hopefully learned a lesson without killing anyone.

 

[Slugger]

"Ms. Cousar was not decertified but was required to accomplish retraining in the form of several computer based instruction (CBI) lessons related to tower operations and to participate in the National Air Traffic Professionalism Program (NATPRO) for ATC skills refresher training."

Wouldn't you guys think that was worthy of decertification? IMO, if bluestreak didn't abort and they crashed, she would have been fired right away, and she would have done nothing different in either outcome.

The PC-12 crew was at fault too, partly because the report said they were squawking 5105 instead of 5150 so their data block didn't show up on the ASDE.

 

[jhugz]

It's not as simple as you'd like to think, and you're digging yourself a hole right now.

I guess when workload increases we just dump our SA on the backs of controllers.

Whatever...done w/ this one. 121 Pilots can do no harm.

 

[BobDDuck]

I guess when workload increases we just dump our SA on the backs of controllers.

Whatever...done w/ this one. 121 Pilots can do no harm.

They can do plenty of harm but that's really not the point.

If you watched the animation you'd see that the RJ crew at no point in time saw the PC12 until they were on the roll already. Remember, runway 23 is a bit higher than 18L so when you are at the threshhold of 18L you can't see ANY of the runway past the 23 intersection.

Also, because of a displaced threshhold on 18L you have to taxi forward a bit once you are on the runway meaning you can't see the guy in the number 1 hold short spot.

Add in the fact that it's very normal for a controller to clear a plane for takeoff and in the next breath put another one into position and hold, why would a pilot think twice when hearing this?

As I've said before, I really hate using this phraseology, but in this case, you have no idea what you are talking about and the sooner you put the shovel down you'll stop digging a hole for yourself.

 

[PFGiardino]

"May 2009 CLT Runway Incursion..."

 

[jhugz]

You can either blame both crews or none. They both lost SA and almost contributed that link in the chain that led to the demise of 50+ people. The controller is 90% at fault but the PC-12 & RJ share the last 10%.

 

[casey]

I guess when workload increases we just dump our SA on the backs of controllers.

Whatever...done w/ this one. 121 Pilots can do no harm.

Step back and look at the big picture.

SA lost? As others have pointed out on 18L you have to taxi a bit up the pavement to the beginning of the runway (take a look at satellite of 18L, you cant apply takeoff power till you cross the thick white line, so that is where you position, you cant see the #1 airplane holding short).

To your "head on a swivel" comment, in a 121 *CREW* environment, it is not like your CFI + Student environment. The pilot flying is looking out the windows and the pilot not flying is heads down during takeoff roll. They need to be watching engine instruments and crew alert system messages for abnormals and making callouts for the guy flying. And in fact, at the earliest opportunity (line of sight issues) they *did* see the pc-12, as they took evasive action to avoid it.

121 pilots can do no harm, but honestly in this case I cant find anything they did that was wrong. Revisit this idea after you've spent some time in a 2 man crew environment in an airplane that actually requires 2 crewmembers and have visited CLT a few times. Experience may enhance your perspective.

 

[jhugz]

To your "head on a swivel" comment, in a 121 *CREW* environment, it is not like your CFI + Student environment. The pilot flying is looking out the windows...

Exactly...that's why it's a two pilot crew. The increased workload calls for the extra pilot. I know workload is high, not trying to argue that statement.

If the PVD USAir crew did the same thing this crew did it would have turned into another ORD incursion.

 

[BobDDuck]

If the PVD USAir crew did the same thing this crew did it would have turned into another ORD incursion.

Aroo?

 

[casey]

If the PVD USAir crew did the same thing this crew did ...

apples and oranges.

The PVD scenario involved a very confused plane broadcasting his uncertainty about his position on the radio.

The CLT scenario involves a radio communication you hear every single time you are cleared for takeoff, ever, in a 121 environment. Seriously.

 

[surreal1221]

I do have self control champ but since you don't drop me another PM and turn your epaulets back around.

I'm not trying to blame the RJ solely I just don't feel he is free of blame. He taxied past the traffic that would have positioned behind and I believe it was a Hawkeye(?) followed by a Corporate Jet.

If I'm taxing past the traffic that will be behind me and I don't see a PC-12 then I hope to hell I would realize what is going on if they get a call telling them to position and hold. 1+1=2. No PC-12 behind me so where the hell is it?

Any traffic holding short should be noted before the roll if possible and an eye should be kept on them. Which to their credit sounded like it happened and prevented a disaster. Just because their actions did prevent an accident doesn't mean they are free from critique. Just like I along w/ others made comments about the sterile through 10 on the Hudson Landing.

Wow, and here I thought you were turning a corner man.

 

[zmiller4]

You can either blame both crews or none. They both lost SA and almost contributed that link in the chain that led to the demise of 50+ people. The controller is 90% at fault but the PC-12 & RJ share the last 10%.

Wrong. The Pilatus did not get "position and hold 18L at R", but they entered the runway there anyway. The RJ did not violate an ATC command.

 

[meyers9163]

You can either blame both crews or none. They both lost SA and almost contributed that link in the chain that led to the demise of 50+ people. The controller is 90% at fault but the PC-12 & RJ share the last 10%.

I guess that is WHY the FAA presented this crew with an FAA Safety award for preventing the death of 50 plus people before this demo was even released???? Until you take off of Runway 18L in CLT and know what you are looking at, you have no clue how impossible it is to see the aircraft downfield in position in hold. Actually it is RARELY done that ATC will clear someone downfield in CLT into position and hold especially on 18L.... At the end of the day the crew did one HELL of a job to prevent things from getting worse. The Controller got on the radio in time as well to help prevent the situation from getting worse as well......

 

[jhugz]

At the end of the day the crew did one HELL of a job to prevent things from getting worse.

Agree w/ you 110% on this point...however I disagree w/ you that this incident wasn't preventable on both the RJ's and PC-12's loss of SA (along w/ the controller of course).

 

[joliet]

Agree w/ you 110% on this point...however I disagree w/ you that this incident wasn't preventable on both the RJ's and PC-12's loss of SA (along w/ the controller of course).

How was the CRJ supposed to prevent it in any other way than they did?

Did you read Bob Ducks post where he said one cannot even see the PC12 from position where the CRJ began the takeoff roll.

How did the CRJ lose SA?

The controller lost SA, and the PC12 didn't see the CRJ as they were taxiing onto the runway.

Have you ever been in the business end of an airplane on 18L?

Take a bite of humble pie and admit this was an awesome save made by the CRJ crew given some really crappy circumstances.