Manual Flight - What's your thought?

[dasleben]

Pretty much every departure we do out of ATL now is an RNAV departure, and they're "strongly recommending" that we use full automation for all RNAV departures. The feds have been taking even the slightest deviation off RNAV course very seriously. Outside of that, I typically let the airplane accelerate to 250 before engaging autoflight, because frankly, I can do it more smoothly than the automation with all of the configuration changes on departure. After stabilized at 250, the automation is usually smoother than any pilot could hope to be. The 717 has a great autopilot. I rarely turn off the autopilot on approach before 500 feet unless I'm doing a true visual approach. I'd rather be paying attention to where the traffic is, to be honest.

If I remember right, Boeing told AirTran that use of full automation saves 2% in fuel costs. That's a big deal. Flying around manually just for fun isn't worth the extra cost to the airline. When you spend billions every year on fuel, a 2% savings could be the difference between a big profit or a big loss.

That's pretty much how I do it. Of course, as always, if the automation becomes more work, then everything gets turned off. I'm the type who prefers to turn off the F/D on a non-ILS based visual as well (though, I know some like to have something up, and that's fine), but for the most part things are hooked up if I can get away with it. Just less work for your flying partners, and better situational awareness all around. On an RNAV departure, the autopilot is best unless you're good at leading the flight director commands (which can be done, but I guarantee the autopilot does it better in my whip).

Unlike everything else I've flown though, the 767/757 autoflight is excellent. Very smooth, and the VNAV works fantastic. There's a definite economic advantage with VNAV usage as well, specifically because the jet calculates an idle descent from altitude to the first restriction. If you've got decent wind data in the box, it does a very nice job.

The only time I've seen it get out of whack is during an ILS, but that's more been a result of crappy antennas at remote foreign airports. I recall having to disconnect early at the end of a 17 hour, 14.0 block, 2-leg day going into Korea once, which was not fun when your brain is running at about 25% already (I later ASAP'd that duty day).

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Haha, do many swept wing jets hang out at FL230?

The CRJ and ERJ technically (heavy ) have swept wings, and DFW-ABI, GRK are usually FL240.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That. And never go to a flight school called Jet U. It's really embarrassing.

I need to buy you a beer despite our past.

Yes, my advice would be to never put out a large sum (like I did) upfront for training. Always pay-as-you-go. If they want 70k upfront, tell them you will pay the applicable hourly rate for the airplane and instructor, and that you can advance them payment for at the beginning of the day you are flying if they are afraid you won't pay after the flight. Never pay upfront a large fee! Far too many scams out there. I lucked out, but it was just that: luck and timing. Guys that went there in Jan-May 2009 got completely screwed.

 

[Hacker15e]

Pretty much every departure we do out of ATL now is an RNAV departure, and they're "strongly recommending" that we use full automation for all RNAV departures.

As an outsider to the 121 world, but someone who has operated out of some busy airports with complicated SIDs and STARs, that makes perfect sense to me.

Boeing told AirTran that use of full automation saves 2% in fuel

That's the part that makes the most sense, no matter who ya are.

 

[Hacker15e]

Haha, do many swept wing jets hang out at FL230?

Pretty standard cross-country block for the swept wing jets I've flown.

 

[z987k]

Pretty standard cross-country block for the swept wing jets I've flown.

Huh, your fuel burn has to be terrible.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Hand flying is fun, its one of the things I enjoy the most about flying. I'll even be a masochist and say "well, that was fun." After flying a leg when the autopilot is deferred. It is absolutely imperative that as a professional pilot you need to be not just able, but proficient at hand flying the airplane.

That being said, I love me some automation. It simply isn't AS safe to fly in the environment we operate in all day without an autopilot. Is it possible? Yes, but most accidents and incidents aren't caused by people's inability to control the aircraft, but by bad decision making. When you have the autopilot to take care of the heading/altitude, it frees up your mind to focus on the tactical aspect of the flight. This is especially important when the day gets long or the conditions suck. But you should always be able to click it off and take over if you don't like what its doing.

 

[///AMG]

Huh, your fuel burn has to be terrible.

It might be a low bypass vs high bypass thing, but to be honest, our fuel burn is not that much worse at 25k than it is at 35-40k. As an example, our bingo fuel numbers (ie the max fuel performance you can get for a given distance) typically reference somewhere around 30k or so. Compare the fuel burn for those profiles to the sea level (ie not climbing at all) fuel burn for the same distance, and the difference is no greater than 1000 lbs for any distance, configuration, etc. When you carry 12-14k lbs of gas, that just isn't that big of a deal when you are simply going from pt A to B and minimum fuel isn't a concern.

 

[Hacker15e]

Huh, your fuel burn has to be terrible.

With this kind of drag index, fuel burn is rarely a primary concern outside of simply figuring out how much it is going to take to get where we're going!

 

[jrh]

I know the OP might have been talking about jets/airline flying, but I just want to point out automation is becoming more and more important even in piston singles.

The Garmin GFC700 autopilot, commonly installed on many piston singles built within the past three or four years, is truly amazing. It is both smoother and has more features than many turboprops and light jets. HDG, ALT, ROL, PIT, NAV, APR, IAS, VS, VNV, underspeed protection, overspeed protection, and it's super simple to operate.

Ultimately, I think that's the key to increasing both safety and enjoyment with automation--have a system that is capable of doing what you want, when you want.

Many of the complaints/mistrust of automation comes from having crappy old systems that aren't user friendly and/or do what they're supposed to do.

I've done plenty of hand flying over the years in all types of piston planes in all types of weather. I'm not scared of it or think it's an unacceptably dangerous activity. But give me an aircraft with a good system, like the GFC700/G1000 combination, and that sucker's getting clicked on from shortly after takeoff to arrival in the traffic pattern or breaking out of the clouds on approach.

It's a huge help when flying single pilot, in unfamiliar airspace and/or nasty weather. On long trips it greatly cuts down on fatigue which is both an enjoyment factor as well as a safety factor if the trip terminates with an arrival into an unfamiliar airport.

If a person wants to take a DA40 XLS cross country without automation or own a 182 without an autopilot, that's fine, they can do whatever they want. It's not necessarily unsafe. I don't see the point though. I don't think it proves anything about how good of a pilot they are. I look at it the same way I look at joggers...if you want to expend a bunch of energy without going very fast, that's cool...as for me, I'll ride my bike.

 

[mastermags]

Haha, do many swept wing jets hang out at FL230?

We've had so many pack deferrals on our 900's lately that we have been flying all over the damn place at FL250. I had a pack deferral and AP deferal last week and had to hand fly SYR-ATl. Apparently our DTW-MTY flights have been having to schedule fuel stops in MEM because of the FL250 restriction.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

We've had so many pack deferrals on our 900's lately that we have been flying all over the damn place at FL250. I had a pack deferral and AP federal last week and had to hand fly SYR-ATl. Apparently our DTaw-MTY flights have been having to schedule fuel stops in MEM because of the FL250 restriction.

This place can be pretty damn embarrassing sometimes.

 

[rjmore]

In the airline world it is all about safety, saving money, passenger comfort, and being on-time. Automation is a huge contributor to the first three.

In the end hand flying is fun IF you are in something you can actually have fun in. My idea of a fun day in an airplane is going to be a whole lot different than the suit in 1A.

 

[seagull]

Turbine Commander.

I always liked the way those looked. I got about 30 minutes in one once, many years ago.

 

[flyinguitar]

With this kind of drag index, fuel burn is rarely a primary concern outside of simply figuring out how much it is going to take to get where we're going!

I am monumentally interested and totally didn't understand what you said. Why again do you not care about fuel burn? Why not just take the extra 20 seconds to climb another 10,000' and save fuel?

Thanks!

 

[Boris Badenov]

I look at it the same way I look at joggers...if you want to expend a bunch of energy without going very fast, that's cool...as for me, I'll ride my bike.

I think the apposite analogy might be "what if when your bike breaks you either jog or die?" Seems like a pretty good advertisement for being able to jog.

 

[Hacker15e]

Why not just take the extra 20 seconds to climb another 10,000' and save fuel?

It isn't that I don't care, its that mission requirements dictate what altitude I fly at, not fuel efficiency or cost-per-air-mile. Mission accomplishment in a fighter is typically a high fuel consumption activity.

In addition -- and the reason I posted the photo -- given all of the stuff hanging off the airplane, I can't always get up into the high 30s or 40s and maintain it without using afterburner....which tends to kill fuel efficiency (50% more power at 150% more fuel consumption). A combat-loaded strike fighter is the dictionary definition of parasite drag.

FWIW, without tapping into 'burner, it takes a lot more than 20 seconds to cruise climb from the 20s to the 30s.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Since right now an Arrow is the biggest thing I'm flying, I hand-fly. Only use auto-pilot in these GA planes when the cruise is over an hour of straight and level flying, even then you still need keep pressure on the rudder usually. Automation is important in the big jets, but at the GA level, I don't see why people would pay to rent an airplane just to let it fly itself.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

In the end hand flying is fun IF you are in something you can actually have fun in. My idea of a fun day in an airplane is going to be a whole lot different than the suit in 1A.

True, but I also look at it as a challenge. Be as precise as I can be while being as smooth as possible. My goal is to make it so that if a passenger closes their eyes, they can't tell that anything is changing. Actually in a lot of cases there are some things that I can do much smoother than our autopilot (like intercept a localizer in any sort of a crosswind).

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Since right now an Arrow is the biggest thing I'm flying, I hand-fly. Only use auto-pilot in these GA planes when the cruise is over an hour of straight and level flying, even then you still need keep pressure on the rudder usually. Automation is important in the big jets, but at the GA level, I don't see why people would pay to rent an airplane just to let it fly itself.

Pssst... if you're flying an Arrow (or most any Piper), it has rudder trim. I highly suggest it.