Malaysian 777 Plane Crashes in Ukraine

Semi-graphic article, but a very interesting read about that conditions at the crash site and just how compromised the investigation and recovery is so far.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-dispatch-grim-crash-site-IAN-BIRRELL.html
It's truly disgusting and beyond heartbreaking. They have stolen, removed and rifled through the poor victim's luggage, clothing, bodies, removed many parts/pieces from the aircraft, removed the bodies and so many personal belongings, delayed any true investigation from even beginning, kept investigators at bay- going as far as to fire warning shots at them - partially in an attempt to hide/destroy evidence, cover up what really occurred, but mostly because they must be some of the most immoral, evil and callous SOBs on the planet.
 
It's truly disgusting and beyond heartbreaking. They have stolen, removed and rifled through the poor victim's luggage, clothing, bodies, removed many parts/pieces from the aircraft, removed the bodies and so many personal belongings, delayed any true investigation from even beginning, kept investigators at bay- going as far as to fire warning shots at them - partially in an attempt to hide/destroy evidence, cover up what really occurred, but mostly because they must be some of the most immoral, evil and callous SOBs on the planet.

Kind of makes it hard to claim they're fighting for a noble cause.
 
Came across a Blomberg article today that on the 20th, THE 20TH, Malaysian airlines FINALLY sent people to the crash site. WHY YHE HELL WEREN'T THEY ON THEIR WAY THEIR ON THE 17TH! COMPLETE INCOMPETENCE!
 
Came across a Blomberg article today that on the 20th, THE 20TH, Malaysian airlines FINALLY sent people to the crash site. WHY YHE HELL WEREN'T THEY ON THEIR WAY THEIR ON THE 17TH! COMPLETE INCOMPETENCE!

One more time please?

You're upset because MH didn't send anyone there until the 20th? I'm not sure, one of your airplanes was just out of the clear blue sky, I wouldn't consider the location a friendly spot for a last minute trip without some security considerations.
 
One more time please?

You're upset because MH didn't send anyone there until the 20th? I'm not sure, one of your airplanes was just out of the clear blue sky, I wouldn't consider the location a friendly spot for a last minute trip without some security considerations.

If you're not willing to accept the risk of aviation(including heading into a place such as this through the air AND on the ground), then stay out of it. They were willing to risk these peoples lives in the sky, so they should also be willing to risk their own on the ground.

If they couldn't get to the site, then get as close as you can.
 
If you're not willing to accept the risk of aviation(including heading into a place such as this through the air AND on the ground), then stay out of it. They were willing to risk these peoples lives in the sky, so they should also be willing to risk their own on the ground.

If they couldn't get to the site, then get as close as you can.
So... It would have looked better for the airline to send more of their people into the accident zone hastily and potentially get them killed in the process than to wait a few days and make a more thorough plan? I mean if it had been weeks I could see getting upset, but I wouldn't accuse them of slacking for taking a few days to get everything together. In addition to the whole war zone aspect, it's not necessarily in their backyard.

Full disclosure: I'm not an expert in accident investigation, so maybe this is indeed a ridiculous amount of time, I really don't know, but I really don't think it works as an example of extreme incompetence.
 
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Is it just me or is that lady wearing a Malaysian Airlines flight attendant uniform?

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That dress looks like the one the second attendant from the right is wearing...or maybe its just a similar dress.

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Here is ATC radar video at the time of the accident provided by the Russian department of defense.



They claim there is another aircraft, no secondary response circling over the accident spot and then descending below the coverage altitudes. Does it look like an aircraft or its just a reflection from the falling debris?
 
If you're not willing to accept the risk of aviation(including heading into a place such as this through the air AND on the ground), then stay out of it. They were willing to risk these peoples lives in the sky, so they should also be willing to risk their own on the ground.

If they couldn't get to the site, then get as close as you can.

Umm, hmmm… Where to start here.

I've been routed over some very, shall we say, unsavory locales. They know we're coming, we've paid them a fair ransom for the right to do so, and largely we've got diversionary planning in order to help us either get to a more safe and/or politically safe airport if certain events transpire. Karachi does a fantastic job, for the most part, they do the best they can, but like hell I'm going to drop in there for a medical emergency.

A number of years ago, a large international carrier had an indication of a cargo fire over Iran in a DC-10. You really don't want to mess with cargo fires and the flight diverted into Tehran.

I wouldn't expect a maintenance crew to immediately fly into Iran because there are a whole number of technical and political dynamics which would be necessary. We have, well, shall we say appropriately-equipped extract options available to us worldwide, but that's intended Blackhawk Down type situations and a simple emergency diversion doesn't necessarily mean that the State Department wants to deal with the private appropriately-equipped extract option because it will be an international event which has ramifications well beyond the scope of what all of us sitting behind a computer full of vim and vigor can fathom.

I withhold judgement of Malaysian Airlines. They've got a whole lot more stuff going on than many of us, in front of our computers in the safety of the United States, possibly realize. It feels good to talk tough and talk about what someone else should do, just as long as we realize that it's just talk.

Malaysia, hell, not even you as an American, can go blazing into separatist-controlled anything. Where are you going to land? How are you going to get from where you landed to the location of the investigation without cooperation and coordination? Rambo's a movie.
 
mshunter said:
If you're not willing to accept the risk of aviation(including heading into a place such as this through the air AND on the ground), then stay out of it. They were willing to risk these peoples lives in the sky, so they should also be willing to risk their own on the ground. If they couldn't get to the site, then get as close as you can.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
Malaysia, hell, not even you as an American, can go blazing into separatist-controlled anything. Where are you going to land? How are you going to get from where you landed to the location of the investigation without cooperation and coordination? Rambo's a movie.

Wait...are you implying that PIC time and a fourth stripe doesn't hold any weight against a guy with an AK47?
 
As suspected:

July 22, 2014

HRABOVE, Ukraine — International monitors who have finally gained full access to the Malaysia Airlines crash site in eastern Ukraine said Tuesday the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separatists.

The monitors said said large parts of the cockpit -- and every part of the fuselage -- were carried off. They said they are not sure why such vital pieces of evidence from the downed plane were tampered with.

Flight 17, carrying 283 passengers and 15 crew members, crashed Thursday after being hit by what U.S. officials suspect was a surface-to-air missile launched from an area controlled by Russian-backed separatists.

The separatists and Russia have denied shooting down the plane, which was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The cockpit was found in a section of the crash site that had been immediately cordoned off during the first two days after the plane went down. Witnesses tell USA TODAY that this was also the area where the first bodies were removed.

The cockpit apparently was cut in half with diesel-powered saws.

"The rear part of the aircraft, one of the biggest intact pieces, has definitely been hacked into," said Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the group of international monitors from the Organize for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

"The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site," he said. "All of which begs the question: What are they trying to hide?"

After a four-day standoff, international teams were allowed into the crash site to look for more bodies and to gather evidence, but are cognizant of the political upheaval in the area, which Russia-back rebels have claimed as independent of Ukraine.

"It has been a different group of separatists every day, it is very difficult to actually get any insight as to which battalion or which group they belong to," Bociurkiw said.

Two hundred bodies of victims have been taken from the site and sent by refrigerated rail cars to the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, where they are expected to be transported by a cargo plane on Wednesday to The Netherlands. Nearly two-thirds of the victims were Dutch citizens.

Dutch officials noted that rebels had said that the train was carrying 282 bodies, but that a hard count showed only 200 on board, the BBC reports. They had no immediate explanation for the discrepancy.

Small teams continue to search for more bodies from among the 298 victims, but monitors suggested that it could take months to scour the crash site's 6-mile radius.

The personal belongings -- luggage, clothes, toys, books -- found at the crash site so far have been collected under four tents. One pile was taken to the train station in nearby Torez, but was left on the platform when the train carrying the bodies departed abruptly on Monday for Kharkiv.

The train was met in Kharkiv by police forensic experts as well as representatives of countries whose citizens were aboard the ill-fated plane.

Investigators had faced massive hurdles Saturday as they sought access to the grisly crash site of a Malaysian plane in eastern Ukraine, with the area controlled by armed rebels blamed for downing the jet with a missile.

Despite a hail of calls from around the globe for a swift probe into the crash, initial efforts by international monitors to gain full access to the site have been impeded by pro-Russian separatists locked in fighting with Ukraine forces.


Gunmen prevented monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe from observing the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed in rebel-held eastern Ukraine on Friday, the rights and security watchdog said.

Calling their behavior "impolite and unprofessional", an OSCE spokesman said some gunmen in the area seemed intoxicated while others would not let the team of about 25 observers look at the wreckage of the Boeing 777.

"We had expected unfettered access, that's the way we work," Michael Bociurkiw told a news conference. "Unfortunately the task was made very difficult. Upon arrival at the site ... we encountered armed personnel who acted in a very impolite and unprofessional manner. Some of them even looked, acted intoxicated."








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Needless to say, that the untrained rebels are carting away evidence and refusing entry to actual investigators from the The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) could make it harder for the world to ever fully understand what happened. The OSCE is a Vienna-based intergovernmental organization that works on conflict and disaster management issues such as the Ukraine crisis; its investigators are typically allowed complete access to such scenes.

Even worse, the rebels' apparently lax treatment of the bodies of the 298 dead, who are casually hauled off or simply left on the ground, risks putting the victims' families through even more trauma. And there has been looting; reports indicate that locals are using credit cards found on the victims' bodies.
 
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Wow, I rarely have this strong of a reaction to accident photos, but those last two pictures legitimately made me feel sick.

The worst photo that I saw over the weekend was of a nude baby, maybe 10 months old or so, just lying abandoned in an empty field. The body was intact, no obvious injuries and just laying on it's back, so helpless, so innocent, so pure, so incredibly lonely and stark, yet so obscene in it's personal unspeakable horror, that it made me weep. I still cannot get that image out of my mind nor the thoughts for all aboard that fated flight, but especially for all the children. It has made me so angry, and so frustrated. I cannot believe the indignities that have taken place since the crash. There apparently is no low that humankind can sink to and no boundaries that will not be crossed. It's very saddening. It diminishes one's hope.
 
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The worst photo that I saw over the weekend was of a nude baby, maybe 10 months old or so, just lying abandoned in an empty field. The body was intact, no obvious injuries and just laying on it's back, so helpless, so innocent, so pure, so incredibly lonely and so obscene in it's personal unspeakable horror, that it made me weep. I still cannot get that image out of my mind nor the thoughts for all aboard that fated flight, but especially for all the children. It has made me so angry, and so frustrated. I cannot believe the indignities that have taken place since the crash. There apparently is no low that humankind can sink to and no boundaries that will not be crossed. It's very saddening. It diminishes one's hope.
Ugh I'm glad I didn't come across that, I've been doing by best to avoid any pictures with actual corpses in it because that just goes into a whole different level of reality that I try not to think too deeply about.
 
Don't ever get curious. I've obviously never conducted any crash investigation on scene, but saw plenty of nastiness on tape in my crash investigation class.

The people that are able to conduct an investigation, unlike these looting thugs, my hat is off to them because I would probably quit my first day.
 
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