Malaysian 777 Plane Crashes in Ukraine

chrisreedrules said:
I mean... Being a firearms aficionado and all... I did notice some of the "contractors" walking around in distinctly Western gear... Like Adams Arms piston M4s. ;)

Instead Mexico just lobs bus loads of it's citizens over the border.
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I don't think Mexico as an entity is lobbing citizens over the border. I think its individuals trying to make a better life for themselves. Something, I hope, any of us would do. But hey, we were fortunate enough to have our parents have sex in America and they were not so let's deport their ass.

I've had a few Moscow mule's tonight (ironically) so let's thread drift!
 
Well, I didn't have a heck of a lot of time to opine today but I do care about the situation, greatly.

Flying from AMS to BOM, you fly over Simferopol, Crimea, Iran or Iraq (sometimes both), Afghanistan, Pakistan and a whole lot of oil platforms in the Persian Gulf, at times, that could have "anything" out there.

Erase some of those flights through the region, less passengers being fed to the US, less passengers mean cutbacks and shizzle's gonna "get real" when you're junior and on the street and the bills keep rolling in.

We work in a global marketplace and as we've seen, the "Butterfly Effect" is in full force in our industry. Don't ever think we're buffered from world events.

Ever.
 
An article on some of the SAM systems in the region:
http://defensetech.org/2014/07/17/4...tems-that-could-shoot-down-the-malaysian-jet/

And just some food for thought... The Ukranians aren't in the business of shooting down aircraft right now for a couple reasons. 1) The Separatists don't have any airplanes. 2)They wouldn't want to further risk direct Russian involvement by shooting down a Russian plane.

I think so far the preliminary evidence points towards the Russian-backed separatists or perhaps the Russians themselves pulling the trigger. But either way, as that article so nonchalantly points out, operating a multi-vehicle / multi-discipline mobile SAM battery isn't like picking up an iPhone and sending some texts and making a call. It would take some serious know-how and training to operate. I think no matter which way you look at it, Russians will take the blame for this one.
 
Adler said:
I'm not looking to derail this thread, so I'll just post this one comment and be done. There's a video by Dennis Prager circulating, it's very good; one point at the end really brings it all into perspective. He says:

If, tomorrow, Israel laid down its arms and announced, "We will fight no more," what would happen? And if the Arab countries around Israel laid down their arms and announced "We will fight no more," what would happen?

In the first case there would be an immediate destruction of the state of Israel and the mass murder of its Jewish population. In the second case, there would be peace the next day.​
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Perhaps, but what would be the results if those same things happened in 1947? Please recall Israel was founded by terrorists/rebels/patriots who took others' homes and blew up the passenger conveyances of that era.
 
Derg said:
Hell, since we're going off topic. If I was Mexican and lived in Sonora, you bet your ass I'd make my way north.
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You're not mexican?
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SpiraMirabilis said:
There could be a military motive if the Ukrainian government was behind it, if they felt they could place the blame on the rebels and if they felt that the aftermath would either reduce or halt the Russian government's willingness to continue to arm the rebels or perhaps even international peacekeepers assistance in putting down the rebellion. However, that doesn't seem likely in my opinion but it is a valid (if amoral) military reason.

I'm pretty sure the Ukrainians would have to know we have IR satellites so they would have had to sneak the missile system deeply in rebel controlled territory, fire the missile and not get caught doing it. So seems unlikely.
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That's some seriously evil stuff. And if they got caught, how badly would that backfire? There would be ZERO support for sanctions against Russia if Ukraine deliberately shot down the plane. All financial aid to them would go bye bye.

Even if they wanted to, the repercussions if they were caught would be too serious to risk.
 
Derg said:
Well, I didn't have a heck of a lot of time to opine today but I do care about the situation, greatly.

Flying from AMS to BOM, you fly over Simferopol, Crimea, Iran or Iraq (sometimes both), Afghanistan, Pakistan and a whole lot of oil platforms in the Persian Gulf, at times, that could have "anything" out there.

Erase some of those flights through the region, less passengers being fed to the US, less passengers mean cutbacks and shizzle's gonna "get real" when you're junior and on the street and the bills keep rolling in.

We work in a global marketplace and as we've seen, the "Butterfly Effect" is in full force in our industry. Don't ever think we're buffered from world events.

Ever.
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You know Derg. I was thinking about you today. Because I know you fly out that way. I can only imagine how vulnerable you feel when operating in that kind of airspace. All that really is keep ing you safe is goodwill. The fact that when most of the worlds military looks at an unarmed airliner that they see a vulnerable, non threatening piece of equipment filled likely with women and children. As the flight crew of an airliner operating in that airspace I imagine you would just have to trust that no one was going to start shooting at a vulnerable target.

I also called my buddy who flies a lot of international trips at another major. While they don't fly out that way he reminded me of exactly what you just brought up. That the industry can be brought down with just a few relatively cheap missiles. As pilots we trust in the system that this kind of thing won't happen and we can pursue a career without this kind of nonsense crushing out dreams.
 
SilkyD said:
Do we have any Russian or Ukranian speakers here to translate? Not having much luck copying that onto Google translate.

The only thing I can make sense of is mention of an Antonov 26 (Ah-26). I believe an An-26 was shot down a few days back.
However the English headline says he commented on the downed MH17 flight.

That's why I am saying best to get 100% confirmation.
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Here is a translation for you, not that it matters, this thread fell apart in like 24hrs. Starting to lose respect for JC honestly.

"An AN-26 was just shot down in the Toreza region, currently somewhere behind the "Progress" coalmine.
Did we not warn - do not fly in "our sky".
And here is a video confirmation of another "falling birdy"
The "birdy" fell behind a mound (referring to surface coal deposits), did not touch the populated sector.
Peaceful people were not hurt.

There is also information about a second shot down airplane, possibly a Su."

The tweet has july 17th as the date, but he mentions an Antonov. I bet he is really talking about MH17, just misinformed about the type of airplane.
 
wainscottbl said:
Did I ever say I made up my mind? I don't think Moscow did it. I think it is possible the pro-Russian forces did it by mistake--they are not Moscow.
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In the same fashion that military advisers are not soldiers.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I mean... Being a firearms aficionado and all... I did notice some of the "contractors" walking around in distinctly Western gear... Like Adams Arms piston M4s. ;)

Instead Mexico just lobs bus loads of it's citizens over the border.


...There has been some serious thread drift today. An unusual amount I'd say. :tinfoil:
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Actually, they're going back. There are more Mexicans leaving than coming now.

We really need to stop kidding ourselves about these people who are here illegally. Ronald Reagan asked the question 30 years ago on whether they were doing jobs that Americans didn't want to do. The answer is pretty clear. Without people who are here illegally, the agricultural industry would collapse. I kinda, sorta like to eat so I'd like to see some kind of immigrant worker program. They can stay as along as they remain employed, don't commit any crimes, and pay their taxes.
 
But @tonyw their parents didn't have sex over here and they're brown!!

They are trying to get the freedoms that we earned and deserve!!
 
proxima3003 said:
Here is a translation for you, not that it matters, this thread fell apart in like 24hrs. Starting to lose respect for JC honestly.

"An AN-26 was just shot down in the Toreza region, currently somewhere behind the "Progress" coalmine.
Did we not warn - do not fly in "our sky".
And here is a video confirmation of another "falling birdy"
The "birdy" fell behind a mound (referring to surface coal deposits), did not touch the populated sector.
Peaceful people were not hurt.

There is also information about a second shot down airplane, possibly a Su."

The tweet has july 17th as the date, but he mentions an Antonov. I bet he is really talking about MH17, just misinformed about the type of airplane.
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In a town nearby...

image.jpg
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
You know Derg. I was thinking about you today. Because I know you fly out that way. I can only imagine how vulnerable you feel when operating in that kind of airspace. All that really is keep ing you safe is goodwill. The fact that when most of the worlds military looks at an unarmed airliner that they see a vulnerable, non threatening piece of equipment filled likely with women and children. As the flight crew of an airliner operating in that airspace I imagine you would just have to trust that no one was going to start shooting at a vulnerable target.
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It's a thought in the back of my head, even domestically. It wouldn't be that hard to get an RPG of some kind into this country. Set up on short final at LA or any place else that has airplanes flying low and slow over heavily populated areas and pop of a couple of rounds.

Also the place you are mostly likely to get launched on is probably on the CLIPR arrival into DCA if you miss the turn at BRUNC.

The difference (to me) about international airspace over some of the hot bed areas is that if you have to put it down on the ground somewhere (due to mechanical issues), what happens once you open the door is very up in the air.
 
BobDDuck said:
It's a thought in the back of my head, even domestically. It wouldn't be that hard to get an RPG of some kind into this country. Set up on short final at LA or any place else that has airplanes flying low and slow over heavily populated areas and pop of a couple of rounds.

Also the place you are mostly likely to get launched on is probably on the CLIPR arrival into DCA if you miss the turn at BRUNC.
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It doesn't even take guys being at the airport perimeter to accomplish something like this.

Look at PHX, for instance. All it takes is some guys to sit at a hotel at night and watch the arrival flows from the NE and from the SE. Then, they could hike up the McDowell mountains east of Scottsdale or the SanTan mountains south of Willie-Gateway, and they've bought themselves some "closing distance" from the arriving traffic; as well as being in the middle of nowhere. Fire a MANPAD from there, and they could be gone long before anyone saw them (if they fired at dusk, for example), and before anyone could respond out there...since most emergency response units would be heading to the scene of the crash anyway. And those areas I mentioned are anywhere from 35-50 nm from KPHX itself. Scary thought.
 
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