Low vis and close in takeoff

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
Given all of the events we have recently heard of with ATC forced GAs I’ll keep this scenario simple.

Low vis night with 1400RVRs fluctuating. You are getting your before takeoff checklist complete when you hear the controller issue you a LUAW RWY 16. After completing the before Takeoff checklist, you take your time taxiing onto the runway due to fog. While taxiing across the hold short line you hear a crew report 3 miles out in a challenger Jet and get cleared to land rwy16 by the tower with a tfc will depart prior to arrival. The tower is in fog and there’s no ASDX on the field.

You already crossed hold short but haven’t made it into the actual runway yet.

What would you do?
 
Last edited:
I would not have accepted the LUAW if all the checklist stuff was not complete.

I will do the before takeoff checklist completely before I take the runway on a day like this, and not accept any clearance to line up or take off if everything is not done. The only thing not done might be a decision to not go based on the RVR with the clearance to go. As in, we briefed RVR X, abd Tower clears us at RVR less than X. Other than that, I'm not rolling across the line if everything is not ready.

Now that I'm an FO again, I'll be touching the brakes or telling the Tower no myself since the CA is not the one on the radio at that point.
 
Do the before takeoff checklist completely before I take the runway on a day like this, and not accept any clearance to line up or take off if everything is not done. The only thing not done might be a decision to not go based on the RVR with the clearance to go. As in, we briefed RVR X, abd Tower clears us at RVR less than X. Other than that, I'm not rolling across the line if everything is not ready.
I should have been more specific in the scenario. The before TO list is already done. The crux of the scenario is he cleared you LUAW and the other jets already on short final to land.
 
I should have been more specific in the scenario. The before TO list is already done. The crux of the scenario is he cleared you LUAW and the other jets already on short final to land.
Then I say if I had the SA to know where the other plane was on final, I might tell the Tower we will continue to hold short for landing traffic if we think it's too close. Usually on a crap vis day like this there is significant in-trail departure spacing going on at big airports so us waiting until the other plane is down wouldn't be a problem. At smaller airports, there probably isn't enough departure traffic to cause a problem either. And other planes waiting to depart would probably understand the decision to wait.

But I'm not crossing the hold short line if I don't like it.
 
Then I say if I had the SA to know where the other plane was on final, I might tell the Tower we will continue to hold short for landing traffic if we think it's too close. Usually on a crap vis day like this there is significant in-trail departure spacing going on at big airports so us waiting until the other plane is down wouldn't be a problem. At smaller airports, there probably isn't enough departure traffic to cause a problem either. And other planes waiting to depart would probably understand the decision to wait.

But I'm not crossing the hold short line if I don't like it.
If only the AUS controller had the same thought process you did and did NOT give a T/O clearance to SWA.
 
This scenario is already illegal before any separation is lost. LUAW procedures vary by airport, however without an ASD-X, clearing an aircraft to land while an aircraft is in position or taxiing into position is explicitly prohibited (or positioning an aircraft after an inbound has already been cleared to land), and even at airports with an ASD-X (with safety logic system enabled), the weather has to be greater than 800/2 to issue a LUAW clearance and a landing clearance to the same runway simultaneously. Some airports go further as to not allow LUAW if the approach end is not visible from the tower.
7110.65
3-9-4
c. 1. (a)

Do not issue a landing clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position or taxiing to line up and wait until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll.
 
When I was at Skyway, MKE had a bad habit of having an aircraft on short approach and telling us "position and hold" with enough opportunity for us to get on the runway and have a loss of separation.
 
When I was at Skyway, MKE had a bad habit of having an aircraft on short approach and telling us "position and hold" with enough opportunity for us to get on the runway and have a loss of separation.


Yeah also, LUAW notwithstanding, in IMC the separation standard between arrival and departure is 2(nm) increasing to 3(nm) within 1 minute (of departure). The 2 miles is measured from the time the departure starts the takeoff roll. In the event the arrival becomes a departure (a go around) alternate separation must be established by the tower using degrees divergence or vertical separation. However, and I have not reviewed the burbank incident, in VMC the minimum runway separation is 6000 feet and airborne when a jet is involved. That is measured from when the arrival crosses the threshold. It is possible that the pilot initiated go-around was unnecessary, IF the situation happened in VMC. Most of us don't make it a habit for running things that tight, but it does happen occasionally.
 
Back
Top