Lost Comms. in IMC

FriendlySkies

Well-Known Member
I would like to get everyone's opinion on this one. Losing communications is probably every pilots worst nightmare, especially in IMC conditions. However, I recently found a method that could help out and set aside the confusion.
For lost comms while flying the route:
A - assigned "King Air 123AB fly V 265 airway"
V - vectored "King Air 123AB fly heading 120"
E - expected "Expect direct to VORTAC in 5 miles"
F - filed as on your flight plan
in this order of importance

For lost comms while flying at altitudes:
M - Minimum enroute altitude as depicted on your Low Enroute Chart
E - Expected "King Air 123AB expect 12000 in 5 miles"
A - Assigned "King Air 123AB maintain 14000"

in reverse order of importance
So the acronymn is: AVE. F and MEA
 
Recently found? These are standard acronyms for IMC lost comm alt and route; have been for a long time. These aren't normally taught, as this acronym?
 
AVEF and highest of MEA....pretty easy to remember :)

Here's a question, if you are flying along on an airway and they vector you off for whatever reason and you lose comms. do you turn and rejoin the airway or do you go direct next fix from present location?
 
AVEF and highest of MEA....pretty easy to remember :)

Here's a question, if you are flying along on an airway and they vector you off for whatever reason and you lose comms. do you turn and rejoin the airway or do you go direct next fix from present location?

So many what ifs in terms of lost comms procedures... Generally they (ATC) gives you a reason for the vectors... "turn right 240 vectors ILS 14 Approach" or "fly heading 280 for traffic." Maybe if I'm being vectored around traffic, I stay that heading until I think I'm clear? Good question... Hope I can find some clear skies. :D
 
AVEF and highest of MEA....pretty easy to remember :)

Here's a question, if you are flying along on an airway and they vector you off for whatever reason and you lose comms. do you turn and rejoin the airway or do you go direct next fix from present location?

If you are being vectored, ATC needs to supply a fix to which they are routing you, in case of lost coms, sometimes overlooked.
 
Here's a question, if you are flying along on an airway and they vector you off for whatever reason and you lose comms. do you turn and rejoin the airway or do you go direct next fix from present location?

Depends.

"Toejam 228, turn right heading 280 vectors around traffic...I'll have you on course in about 10 miles"

When you've gone 10 miles, turn back on course (of course, squawking 7600). If they've got you on RADAR they'll move the other traffic out of your way.

"Skidmark 67, fly heading 110 vectors ILS 18 Approach"

You lose comms, you navigate to the ILS 18 approach if you can, fly it and land.

I'm not a fan of going somewhere to hold for a half hour because I showed up early. If I'm NORDO, ATC is clearing the airspace for me. Every ATCer I've talked to says "just put it on the ground...call us from your cell phone and go get a cup of coffee". That's real world. Text book I guess would be to hold over the IAF and leave so you can arrive at your ETA, but I'm not sure that's a great idear. Depends on the location, when you lost comms, how long you've been NORDO, what the wx is doing, etc.

Remember, if you need it you have 91.3.

-mini
 
I've had several FSDO inspectors and DEs discuss pulling 10-20 minutes off your ETA so you wouldn't necessarily need to hold if you were NORDO.
 
I'm not a fan of going somewhere to hold for a half hour because I showed up early. If I'm NORDO, ATC is clearing the airspace for me. Every ATCer I've talked to says "just put it on the ground...call us from your cell phone and go get a cup of coffee". That's real world. Text book I guess would be to hold over the IAF and leave so you can arrive at your ETA, but I'm not sure that's a great idear. Depends on the location, when you lost comms, how long you've been NORDO, what the wx is doing, etc.

AAHHHhhhh! Finally someone who posted this! If I'm in IMC, and I show up early, I'm not going to risk anything that I don't have to either. Nor am I going to stop everyone else from going into an airport because I am holding at th IAF for 1/2 hour. Get there, and get down. I don't understand why the FAA would want us to bottle neck things up for, lets say 45 mins because we were dealing with an unforcast tailwind the entire flight.
 
I think it would change in a non-radar environment though. We may take radar for granted in the contiguous 48, but in many parts of the world it simply doesn't exist. Maybe some controllers can chime in here, but my best assumption is that when you go NORDO, ATC will do their best to re-establish communications. If communications can't ever be regained, they'll start working to get other airplanes out of your intended flight path. In a non-radar environment-I'm making another assumption here that the only way that they can viably do that is to predicate your arrival on your filed ETA.

If for some reason I think there's any chance ATC can't see me on radar (lost transponder with lost comms and a primary only return)-I am probably going to slow it up and cross an IAF at my ETA (assuming we're completely in instrument conditions the entire time as well). I'd do because without radar again the only way ATC can ensure separation is to rely on your ETA.

There are so many other factors to think about too that make it impossible to plan for this stuff. What if you hit marginal VFR conditions for instance - would it be better to scud run over terrain to an unfamiliar airport or safer to tie things up and your destination, land safely and sort it out later? What if you have a complete electrical failure - and hence no instruments to shoot an approach anywhere? Most of the time we are actually cleared to an airport as our clearance limit and not to a fix where an approach begins. I'm led to believe AVE F - MEA is just a framework to help you make some logical decisions. The AIM even says so in 6-4-1:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/Aim/Chap6/aim0604.html

6-4-1. Two-way Radio Communications Failure
a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).

Sorry to be long-winded.

 
I'm still trying to figure out how I would end up at my destination early if I go lost comm. Does the airplane magically speed up by a significant amount if I can't talk to ATC?

:confused:
 
I'm still trying to figure out how I would end up at my destination early if I go lost comm. Does the airplane magically speed up by a significant amount if I can't talk to ATC?

:confused:
Somebody threw the radio out, and now you are lighter.:panic::)

Thats my best guess anyways.
 
lol - yes you could have tailwinds, a friend name skippy who works in center that gave you a short-cut, and a 380 lb passenger who sits in the aft lavatory during cruise and gives you slightly better performance. Or you're on leg 6 of day 5 and you elect to maybe fly this leg at mach whatever plus one to get home in time to see the wife.
 
AAHHHhhhh! Finally someone who posted this! If I'm in IMC, and I show up early, I'm not going to risk anything that I don't have to either.
There is also an argument that the regulations do not require you to rate.

I don't know about anyone else here, but every departure clearance I've gotten has started with "N[XXXXX] is cleared to the [XYZ] airport."

The airport, has been my clearance limit, not some "fix" from which an approach either does or does not begin.

I know that there's some controversy over this (and also whether it's within the PIC's prerogative to treat lost comms as an emergency), but I have a little trouble reading 91.185(c)(3)(ii) to mean

==============================
[Go to the destination airport and then] ... leave the [destination airport] at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the [destination airport], and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute.
==============================
 
I don't understand why the FAA would want us to bottle neck things up for, lets say 45 mins because we were dealing with an unforcast tailwind the entire flight.

These regs haven't been re written since the stone age and still assume non radar coverage with unreliable equipment.
 
Depends.
. Every ATCer I've talked to says "just put it on the ground...call us from your cell phone and go get a cup of coffee". That's real world. Text book I guess would be to hold over the IAF and leave so you can arrive at your ETA, but I'm not sure that's a great idear. Depends on the location, when you lost comms, how long you've been NORDO, what the wx is doing, etc.

In the real world, I always have a handheld radio in my headset bag. Worst case, another A/C will pick it up and relay to ATC. And whoever I'm flying with usually has one too. The odds of 4 radios dying at the same time are pretty slim. ATC losing their radio (they have a backup transmitter) is probably more likely.

If there is VFR weather nearby, odds are I would elect to get VMC ASAP if fuel allowed.
 
In the real world, I always have a handheld radio in my headset bag. Worst case, another A/C will pick it up and relay to ATC. And whoever I'm flying with usually has one too. The odds of 4 radios dying at the same time are pretty slim. ATC losing their radio (they have a backup transmitter) is probably more likely.

If there is VFR weather nearby, odds are I would elect to get VMC ASAP if fuel allowed.

Funny story about the handhelds, we could not hear ours over the engine.
 
Funny story about the handhelds, we could not hear ours over the engine.

Mine came with a plug for a headset. It is quite loud anyway (yaseu vx-220) Be careful testing it though, mine was set to vox by default. The yaesu I had before had a much softer speaker.

You would only really need it long enough to let ATC know that you lost comms and get a clearance to land. After you get that, you aren't lost comms anymore.
 
I don't know if it is necissarily a substitute for a handheld device, but I have heard of at least one instance where a guy contacted ATC following comm loss on his cell phone and proceded from there. I have accidentally left my phone on a number of times in the cockpit and am normally greeted upon unstrapping with a dead battery from the constant signal hunting, but I assume it could work for at least a short period of time in an emergency. Thoughts?
 
However, I recently found a method that could help out and set aside the confusion.
For lost comms while flying the route:
A - assigned "King Air 123AB fly V 265 airway"
V - vectored "King Air 123AB fly heading 120"
E - expected "Expect direct to VORTAC in 5 miles"
F - filed as on your flight plan
in this order of importance

For lost comms while flying at altitudes:
M - Minimum enroute altitude as depicted on your Low Enroute Chart
E - Expected "King Air 123AB expect 12000 in 5 miles"
A - Assigned "King Air 123AB maintain 14000"

in reverse order of importance
So the acronymn is: AVE. F and MEA

In other news, I heard about this great new pre-landing check called "GUMP"!
 
I don't know if it is necissarily a substitute for a handheld device, but I have heard of at least one instance where a guy contacted ATC following comm loss on his cell phone and proceded from there. I have accidentally left my phone on a number of times in the cockpit and am normally greeted upon unstrapping with a dead battery from the constant signal hunting, but I assume it could work for at least a short period of time in an emergency. Thoughts?



I lost coms going into IWA, and called the tower for my landing clearance over the phone. It was very hard to hear, but it worked.

Just don't let the FCC get involved. I haven't seen a case where it was breaking the FAR's, but I do know it breaks the FCC's rules.
 
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