lost a buddy to Jet-U

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You used the entire bolded section above to simply restate that instructors talk themselves up too much and cited an example of a pilot who wasn't an instructor yet a good pilot.

Actually, not all instructors talk themselves up too much, just certain ones, especially on aviation websites. Most CFIs that flew with me were humble and understood that their CFI time didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. You, as usual, seem to think that your way is the best way and everyone else should just fall in line.

In fact you didn't even say he was a good pilot, just that he was your best friend.

Then allow me to clarify: he is a superb pilot, and probably one of the best Captains at Pinnacle today.

You didn't say why, you didn't say how they gained their experience, you simply make the implication that they listened to the captain and got his coffee and through osmosis eventually became awesome.

You seem to have some underlying problem with Captain's authority. Being a good copilot has nothing to do with "getting the Captain's coffee." It's about knowing how to inject your opinion, when necessary, into the decision making process in a useful and respectful fashion. You strike me as a right-seat-Captain type. The kind of guy that Captains loathe flying with, because you think that your wonderful CFI experience has taught you more than the guy in the left seat that has more actual IMC in type than you have total time. Hopefully that perception that comes across on the internets isn't really what you're like.

But that's not how people learn. People learn by getting into things, making mistakes and doing things on their own, not by being a puppet to a captain. I've learned from captains who are mentors, not from guys that lecture.

People learn from experiences whether they are in the instructor's seat or the right seat of an airliner. In an airline environment, the experience they gain from observing the Captains they fly with is far more useful than any experience they get from instructing in a Piper.

 

[jtrain609]

Actually, not all instructors talk themselves up too much, just certain ones, especially on aviation websites. Most CFIs that flew with me were humble and understood that their CFI time didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. You, as usual, seem to think that your way is the best way and everyone else should just fall in line.

Just think, we could be having this conversation over lunch right now!

Then allow me to clarify: he is a superb pilot, and probably one of the best Captains at Pinnacle today.

Glad you clarified yourself.

You seem to have some underlying problem with Captain's authority. Being a good copilot has nothing to do with "getting the Captain's coffee." It's about knowing how to inject your opinion, when necessary, into the decision making process in a useful and respectful fashion. You strike me as a right-seat-Captain type. The kind of guy that Captains loathe flying with, because you think that your wonderful CFI experience has taught you more than the guy in the left seat that has more actual IMC in type than you have total time. Hopefully that perception that comes across on the internets isn't really what you're like.

Nope, no problems with the captain's authority at all! I just have a good sense of self preservation. The captain can run his ship as he wants to, but I'm not going to let him kill me or violate me just because he has the authority to do so. The company pays us to babysit each other.

Oh and I appreciate the personal attacks! You don't actually know a thing about me. In fact when I bring an opinion and back it up with some statements that you don't agree with, you go on the offensive (poorly, I might add). If I don't fall into line with YOU, then I'M the problem and must be a know it all! Oh the horror of a first officer that you can use as a resource instead of having somebody that's more akin to a lap dog! You know what all my great captains have said in their brief?

"If you see me doing anything strange or non standard or wrong, ask me what's up and most likely I was making a mistake. We're a team, and we're either going to do well together or we're going to fail at this together so I value your input."

Again, resource maximization instead of human factors minimization.

People learn from experiences whether they are in the instructor's seat or the right seat of an airliner. In an airline environment, the experience they gain from observing the Captains they fly with is far more useful than any experience they get from instructing in a Piper.

Again, your opinion, and again without any facts what so ever. While I agree with you, watching somebody else make mistakes is a great way to learn (it's another reason why instructors do so well), but I think you've got this idea that the captain is God. The captain is another pilot, with more experience and is tasked at leading a flight, not controlling a flight.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

-You have to make weather decisions.

The wx decisions that are made in the 121 environment aren't usually go/no-go decisions, they are usually decisions about how best to deal with a certain wx condition. Decisions about which way to go to pick through a line of storms, decisions about what takeoff power setting to use with prevailing wx conditions, decisions about whether to divert, etc... The time spent as a CFI doesn't prepare you to make these sorts of decisions. Your CFI time taught you little about the proper use of wx radar. It taught you little about jet performance on takeoff and risk management in determining takeoff flap and power settings. I doubt you spent much time holding over a fix in your Cessna trying to decide whether you should continue to hold for another 30 minutes or whether you should divert, and if so, which airport to diver to. And so on, and so on. These are situations that require real-world airline experience to have a real firm base of knowledge to pull from to make good decisions. Time spent teaching your students is largely useless in making these decisions.

-How many broken parts of an airplane are too many?

I certainly hope you weren't flying around broken airplanes when you were instructing. Should I start quoting regulations?

 

[Trip7]

Right, the difference is I think you've got this idea that the captain is infailable. He's not in any way, and WILL make mistakes.

Do you know enough to step up and stop him? How do you know whether he's making a bad decision or not? Instructing helped me not only polish my BS sensors, it helped me develop ways to tactfully point out something that may be a problem.

Like you could say...

"Hey skipper, you REALLY wanna do that? 'Cause we're both gonna get hauled into the chief pilot's office when you manage that #### up."

Or

"Hey skipper, the books says that we should be doing X and we're not, maybe we should talk about X more."

Instructing instructing instructing. My students turned me into the pilot I am, not the trainers.

Well I did say this:

What decision making does the FO make? Sure he can chime in with his two cents but the Captain decision is King.

You can throw in your idea but its the captains decision whether to accept it or not. If its a safety of flight issue this is where CRM comes into significant play. Do not have FO syndrome. If I seriously have a problem with a captain's decision that I believe will affect the safety of flight, yes I will chime in a little more. I think that has to do more with CRM training and alittle bit of common sense then CFIing. The main challenge of CFIing was trying to transfer your own flying skills onto other students with different learning styles and abilities. Its takes someone with a remarkable amount of patience, teaching and communication skills to be successful. Personally I think if you bought your own twin and flew cross country IFR for 500 hrs it would do better for your airline career. Unless you were a dedicated MEII for 500hrs hehe. CFIing can help tremendously if you plan to be an IOE instructor!

 

[jtrain609]

The wx decisions that are made in the 121 environment aren't usually go/no-go decisions, they are usually decisions about how best to deal with a certain wx condition. Decisions about which way to go to pick through a line of storms, decisions about what takeoff power setting to use with prevailing wx conditions, decisions about whether to divert, etc... The time spent as a CFI doesn't prepare you to make these sorts of decisions. Your CFI time taught you little about the proper use of wx radar. It taught you little about jet performance on takeoff and risk management in determining takeoff flap and power settings. I doubt you spent much time holding over a fix in your Cessna trying to decide whether you should continue to hold for another 30 minutes or whether you should divert, and if so, which airport to diver to. And so on, and so on. These are situations that require real-world airline experience to have a real firm base of knowledge to pull from to make good decisions. Time spent teaching your students is largely useless in making these decisions.

It's a good thing I've got some time this afternoon to teach you a few things about instructing, because it sounds like you spent more time at Gulfstream than you did as an instructor.

Thunderstorms? I instructed in Texas, we dealt with thunderstorms and how to get around them.

I also diverted a few times as an instructor. Sometimes you just can't get into the field and you've gotta go somewhere else! Sounds like I never calculated how long I could hold either, or where I'd go when I couldn't get in. You must have had one sheltered flight instructing experience!

We sure didn't have weather radar, but we did have XM weather. That stuff was nice!

It looks to me like I made all sorts of decisions! Wow, who woulda guessed it?

I certainly hope you weren't flying around broken airplanes when you were instructing. Should I start quoting regulations?

So you'd cancel a lesson on landings because the mag compass was busted.

Seriously?

I mean of course I always did, but seriously?

ExpressJet wasn't my first experience with an MEL book either, BTW.

And I've gotta say something, I don't think it matters what I say, or what I do in this career, my opinion will never be backed up with as much as yours in your mind, and no matter what I say I'll still be a probie FO in your mind. And that, to me, is too bad, because you're not willing to listen to anybody other than yourself and you haven't thought for a second that you could possibly learn from somebody with less experience than you. You'll take their opinion, note it, remind yourself how you're better and more experienced than them, and write them off. You're in it to win, not to learn and educate.

Or at least that's the impression you've given me. That's fine if that's how you roll, I just chose to live life a tad bit differently.

 

[jtrain609]

Well I did say this:


You can throw in your idea but its the captains decision whether to accept it or not. If its a safety of flight issue this is where CRM comes into significant play. Do not have FO syndrome. If I seriously have a problem with a captain's decision that I believe will affect the safety of flight, yes I will chime in a little more. I think that has to do more with CRM training and alittle bit of common sense then CFIing. The main challenge of CFIing was trying to transfer your own flying skills onto other students with different learning styles and abilities. Its takes someone with a remarkable amount of patience, teaching and communication skills to be successful. Personally I think if you bought your own twin and flew cross country IFR for 500 hrs it would do better for your airline career. Unless you were a dedicated MEII for 500hrs hehe. CFIing can help tremendously if you plan to be an IOE instructor!

Marcus, bro, you're buyin' the hype that they're sellin' ya! Don't be another tool for the man to use! You were learning those CRM skills the whole time you were instructing!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Just think, we could be having this conversation over lunch right now!

Dude, have you looked outside? I'm a southern boy. I can't deal with this white stuff! I might still be available for dinner if my other plans get canceled. I'll let you know.

Oh and I appreciate the personal attacks! You don't actually know a thing about me. In fact when I bring an opinion and back it up with some statements that you don't agree with, you go on the offensive (poorly, I might add). If I don't fall into line with YOU, then I'M the problem and must be a know it all!

It's not a personal attack, just an observation, which is why I specifically pointed out that it's just a perception that may be incorrect due to the communications medium that we're using. You may be completely different in real life, but I'm certainly not the only one around here that thinks you come off as a newbie that thinks he knows more than the experienced guys.

Oh the horror of a first officer that you can use as a resource instead of having somebody that's more akin to a lap dog!

Never said I wanted a lap dog. I hate yes-men. What I said was that copilots need to know how to respectfully voice their opinion when necessary, rather than being right-seat Captains.

You know what all my great captains have said in their brief?

"If you see me doing anything strange or non standard or wrong, ask me what's up and most likely I was making a mistake. We're a team, and we're either going to do well together or we're going to fail at this together so I value your input."

I used to say something similar. From my old brief: "I try do things by the book and follow the profiles, but I'm not perfect, and I forgot things all the time, so if you notice something that I'm doing that's not correct, please let me know." And most copilots were great with it. Many of them pointed out things from the book that I just didn't know, and I changed the way I flew because of it. But, unfortunately, there were also the right-seat-Captain types that felt they could try to run the show their way. Let's just say that they were quickly schooled on what Captain's authority is.

but I think you've got this idea that the captain is God. The captain is another pilot, with more experience and is tasked at leading a flight, not controlling a flight.

The Captain is most certainly not a god, but he is in command of the flight. The copilot is there to offer input to assist the Captain in making decisions. He is not there to attempt to override the Captain's authority or to become a burden to the Captain. A good copilot knows how to find the right balance in order to become a productive member of the crew.

 

[jtrain609]

Oh man, you actually said "I fly by the book?"

Guys that use that phrase NEVER actually fly by the book!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Oh man, you actually said "I fly by the book?"

Guys that use that phrase NEVER actually fly by the book!

Guess I'm the exception to your little stereotype, then.

 

[jtrain609]

You must be, I haven't flown with you, no will I ever. AirTran is about the last place I'm headed after Express unless they open a SLC base.

AirServ on the other hand, that sounds like a good move after this one.

 

[Trip7]

Alrighty folks, in the spirit of paying it forward:
In conclusion, an aspiring airline pilot needs to improve these skills the most in order to be successful in the 121 environment (Feel free to add):

Instrument Skills
CRM skills
Professionalism
Common sense

 

[Gonzo]

Airtran at some point is going to be out west.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's a good thing I've got some time this afternoon to teach you a few things about instructing

Honestly, with comments like this, do you not see why some of us on this site perceive you as being a holier-than-though know-it-all? I mean, really?

because it sounds like you spent more time at Gulfstream than you did as an instructor.

About the same amount of time, actually. I was also a CPT instructor for the airline. Just because I don't put CFIs on a pedestal doesn't mean that I didn't spend a good amount of time teaching. I simply value line flying a lot more than I value instructing.

It looks to me like I made all sorts of decisions! Wow, who woulda guessed it?

I'm sure you did. Those decisions simply don't carry over to the airline environment, however.

So you'd cancel a lesson on landings because the mag compass was busted.

Yup. The first few weeks of writing things up was kind of a pain and the mx guys were royally pissed, but after that they got the picture and just kept things maintained well. I think I grounded half the fleet at one point because of bad transponders.

And I've gotta say something, I don't think it matters what I say, or what I do in this career, my opinion will never be backed up with as much as yours in your mind, and no matter what I say I'll still be a probie FO in your mind.

Not at all. The reason that you and I clash so much is because of your apparent attitude. If you would learn to show a little more humility and acknowledge that your way isn't always the only way, then I'm sure we'd get along just fine. But I have a real problem with guys that think that they have a monopoly on how things should be done in this business. You seem to think that the way you've done things is the only acceptable way to do things. That just makes me cringe.

 

[Gonzo]

About the same amount of time, actually. I was also a CPT instructor for the airline. Just because I don't put CFIs on a pedestal doesn't mean that I didn't spend a good amount of time teaching. I simply value line flying a lot more than I value instructing.

Would you say that time teaching has made you a better CA and/or pilot?

 

[jtrain609]

Not at all. The reason that you and I clash so much is because of your apparent attitude. If you would learn to show a little more humility and acknowledge that your way isn't always the only way, then I'm sure we'd get along just fine. But I have a real problem with guys that think that they have a monopoly on how things should be done in this business. You seem to think that the way you've done things is the only acceptable way to do things. That just makes me cringe.

You realize we're one in the same, right?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Would you say that time teaching has made you a better CA and/or pilot?

I think any kind of flying makes you a better pilot. There's certainly nothing wrong with instructing, and I think it's a great way to build time. My disagreement comes in when guys like jtrain want to claim that it's the best way to build time and become a better pilot. The new ASA minimums are a perfect example of this holier-than-thou BS that puts down other forms of time building.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You realize we're one in the same, right?

The thought has occurred to me. Maybe that's why it's so annoying.

 

[jtrain609]

Hey I'm just one of those guys that wants to be the best, and I will strive to make sure I AM the best. In my experience, from what I've seen at my last three jobs, instructors are the best pilots. I saw that from an instructor standpoint, a training captain standpoint and now as a line pilot standpoint. MY EXPERIENCE tells me that instructors are the best pilots out there, YOUR EXPERIENCE might tell you different.

If somebody else wanted to also be the best pilot they could be, why would I hold back this view from them? Wouldn't I be hurting them if I saw over and over again instructors made the best pilots? Call me arrogant if you want, but I don't like sucking at what I do, and want to do all I can to improve myself and I've found the best way to facilitate that is by teaching.

Again, in my experience.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Fair enough. But give this a try when you upgrade: don't ask your copilots where they got their time at the beginning of the trip. Fly a few legs with them to get a good idea of how they are as pilots and members of your crew, and then ask them whether they instructed, flew jumpers, PFT'd, etc.... Do that for a large enough sample size, and I've got $100 that says you can't discern a difference between the CFIs and non-CFIs just by how they fly and perform their duties as copilots.

 

[jtrain609]

I'll bet you $5 that if you bet me $100, I'd lie to you.

First year pay and all