looking into flight schools

[ubet]

Hello, I am new here and have been reading these forums for awhile now, and googling a lot of info. I am 36 and want to fly for a living, the wife bought me a discovery flight back in August and since then it has been all I can think about is flying. Their is A LOT of info on the web, and not knowing what I do not know, I decided to finally ask some opinions and get some advice.

Flying is something I had always dreamed about, but never figured it would be a possibility. The wife keeps telling me to go for it. We live in Montana, and where we are there isn't a lot of fbos, or places to learn to fly. We are looking at her maybe making a job change, that would quadruple her annual salary, and if that happened it would require us to move and I could go to flight school full time and get my cfii that way. The other option is saving up cash, selling some things off, and me moving away and going to a school such as atp. We would try to save half their projected cost and finance the rest.

My questions are concerning the atp option. Is the quality of education going to be as good as at a fbo? From what I have read it seems like their is almost no ground school there and 99% self study. Being out of school since 04, getting back into the rhythm of studying makes me nervous. Am I better getting my ppl locally then jumping into the deep end? Are the cfis at atp generally helpful or are they only trying to build their time? It is a HUGE investment, this I know. And if we are forking out that kind of cash, I want to know that I am getting the best bang for my buck. I know that I learn best if I am completely immersed in something with zero distractions, especially the kind a one year old and wife can provide. I fear that if I try to go the local route if she doesn't jump jobs, that it will be put on a back burner and take 10 years to accomplish to where I could fly for a regional. The school at kapa is what was interested me, because I know two professional pilots down there. One works for United, the other flies a private jet. And they both said I could use them as resources if I was close. All I do know is I want to fly, just trying to figure out the best way to go about this. It is all pretty scary right now and is a daunting task.

 

[austinrc]

ATP school will likely not be as good as an FBO because most of their instructors were students just a few weeks before and most of them only care about getting in the right seat of an ERJ/CRJ ASAP.

Will the training be bad? No. In fact it will probably be pretty decent. You just won't get the friendly mom & pap experience that you might at some FBOs.

Now, on the other hand, the advantage is the speed. ATP is the fastest way to get to the airlines. Period. If that matters to you, it may be a viable option.

 

[ubet]

ATP school will likely not be as good as an FBO because most of their instructors were students just a few weeks before and most of them only care about getting in the right seat of an ERJ/CRJ ASAP.

Will the training be bad? No. In fact it will probably be pretty decent. You just won't get the friendly mom & pap experience that you might at some FBOs.

Now, on the other hand, the advantage is the speed. ATP is the fastest way to get to the airlines. Period. If that matters to you, it may be a viable option.

Thank you. At kapa there is another flight school (was looking at going to kapa for atp) that is a club, and has ground schools, aircraft rentals etc. Was thinking I could try to get ground school etc. through them (yes it's an extra cost) and fly there when I can't fly with at atp and get any additional help I feel I need there, that I couldn't get through atp. And knowing two people down there that are pilots would help. We're thinking if I do this, we want to cash flow at least half of it. That's why I would have the cash for the other school too. Is that a bad approach? Am I seeing things wrong with any of this? I do know I want the best education possible and do everything I can to increase my chances of success. I don't know what I don't know. So any advice is welcomed.

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[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Hello, I am new here and have been reading these forums for awhile now, and googling a lot of info. I am 36 and want to fly for a living, the wife bought me a discovery flight back in August and since then it has been all I can think about is flying. Their is A LOT of info on the web, and not knowing what I do not know, I decided to finally ask some opinions and get some advice.

Flying is something I had always dreamed about, but never figured it would be a possibility. The wife keeps telling me to go for it. We live in Montana, and where we are there isn't a lot of fbos, or places to learn to fly. We are looking at her maybe making a job change, that would quadruple her annual salary, and if that happened it would require us to move and I could go to flight school full time and get my cfii that way. The other option is saving up cash, selling some things off, and me moving away and going to a school such as atp. We would try to save half their projected cost and finance the rest.

My questions are concerning the atp option. Is the quality of education going to be as good as at a fbo? From what I have read it seems like their is almost no ground school there and 99% self study. Being out of school since 04, getting back into the rhythm of studying makes me nervous. Am I better getting my ppl locally then jumping into the deep end? Are the cfis at atp generally helpful or are they only trying to build their time? It is a HUGE investment, this I know. And if we are forking out that kind of cash, I want to know that I am getting the best bang for my buck. I know that I learn best if I am completely immersed in something with zero distractions, especially the kind a one year old and wife can provide. I fear that if I try to go the local route if she doesn't jump jobs, that it will be put on a back burner and take 10 years to accomplish to where I could fly for a regional. The school at kapa is what was interested me, because I know two professional pilots down there. One works for United, the other flies a private jet. And they both said I could use them as resources if I was close. All I do know is I want to fly, just trying to figure out the best way to go about this. It is all pretty scary right now and is a daunting task.

Yes, PPL at your own local FBO/airport and then dive in full time at ATP with their program when you already have a private. Just know that ATP is going to be very serious and very busy. Good airline training environment, but you won't have much time off doing it. For a career changer, I recommend this path simply for the fact that time isn't on your side now with age and family. But it's a serious program and you need to be fully motivated and focuses on it.

 

[austinrc]

Thank you. At kapa there is another flight school (was looking at going to kapa for atp) that is a club, and has ground schools, aircraft rentals etc. Was thinking I could try to get ground school etc. through them (yes it's an extra cost) and fly there when I can't fly with at atp and get any additional help I feel I need there, that I couldn't get through atp. And knowing two people down there that are pilots would help. We're thinking if I do this, we want to cash flow at least half of it. That's why I would have the cash for the other school too. Is that a bad approach? Am I seeing things wrong with any of this? I do know I want the best education possible and do everything I can to increase my chances of success. I don't know what I don't know. So any advice is welcomed.

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If you are going to split your training up, I would recommend getting your full private pilot's license at your local FBO then go to ATP. Looks like ATP makes the price $64,000 instead of $81,000 if you start there with a PPL.

 

[BrettInLJ]

I would go so far as to say get your PPL and Instrument rating at a local FBO, then look at 141 schools. I’m not sure how the programs are organized at ATP if you already have your IR, but they are not the only game in town.

My experience was the PPL and IR were efficient at local FBOs but then once I was working on the commercial, things drug on until I joined a 141 career-focused school.

 

[Finny]

The rule of thumb for primary education is that it will either be fast, cheap, or a quality education and that you can only pick two of the three.

 

[ubet]

Yes, PPL at your own local FBO/airport and then dive in full time at ATP with their program when you already have a private. Just know that ATP is going to be very serious and very busy. Good airline training environment, but you won't have much time off doing it. For a career changer, I recommend this path simply for the fact that time isn't on your side now with age and family. But it's a serious program and you need to be fully motivated and focuses on it.

Thank you. I have been in contact with a cfi at a local flight school, and am going to get my ppl through him. He quoted me $7500, so I will figure on 10k. I know time is not on my side, and that is why I want to go somewhere else other than local. So I can immerse myself in in it and not be distracted. Time off doesn't really bother me, as I generally work 70hr weeks and 6.5 days a week as is. I am used to being busy. The six to seven months seems like a better way to go than nine away from my family. Getting back into a study habit is going to be tough for me, that's one reason I want to start at an fbo.

 

[ubet]

If you are going to split your training up, I would recommend getting your full private pilot's license at your local FBO then go to ATP. Looks like ATP makes the price $64,000 instead of $81,000 if you start there with a PPL.

I like the looks of that and as I will probably not have the 80hr prerequisite they require, they have a time builder class the ny offer.

I am scared if I do everything through the local fbo, granted he quoted a lot cheaper price than 65k, I wont be able to focus on it and it will drag out. Life will happen and I wont get through this like I know I need too.

My next question, is if I cant get the family moved to where I can cfi for atp, how am I going to build hours to 1500? Local cargo carriers are looking for fo with 800hrs, but 250-800 is a LONG EXPENSIVE jump. Any ideas? My end goal is to fly for regional, then either to major, if I am lucky, a good cargo job or maybe private jet. I am not really picky on where, I dont think. Thanks everyone for commenting.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I like the looks of that and as I will probably not have the 80hr prerequisite they require, they have a time builder class the ny offer.

I am scared if I do everything through the local fbo, granted he quoted a lot cheaper price than 65k, I wont be able to focus on it and it will drag out. Life will happen and I wont get through this like I know I need too.

My next question, is if I cant get the family moved to where I can cfi for atp, how am I going to build hours to 1500? Local cargo carriers are looking for fo with 800hrs, but 250-800 is a LONG EXPENSIVE jump. Any ideas? My end goal is to fly for regional, then either to major, if I am lucky, a good cargo job or maybe private jet. I am not really picky on where, I dont think. Thanks everyone for commenting.

This is about how it is going to go, FYI.

I would respectfully suggest taking a look at what it’s like to work for ATP as well, terms and conditions wise, and make sure they’ll be a “fit.”

 

[austinrc]

I like the looks of that and as I will probably not have the 80hr prerequisite they require, they have a time builder class the ny offer.

I am scared if I do everything through the local fbo, granted he quoted a lot cheaper price than 65k, I wont be able to focus on it and it will drag out. Life will happen and I wont get through this like I know I need too.

My next question, is if I cant get the family moved to where I can cfi for atp, how am I going to build hours to 1500? Local cargo carriers are looking for fo with 800hrs, but 250-800 is a LONG EXPENSIVE jump. Any ideas? My end goal is to fly for regional, then either to major, if I am lucky, a good cargo job or maybe private jet. I am not really picky on where, I dont think. Thanks everyone for commenting.

Can't do CFI for ATP? Lot's of options. Sightseeing flights, pipeline patrol, be a CFI at your local airport, etc.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I'm at airline training focused flight school. I'm definitely a better stick, than I am a book learner. They only teach you what you need to know for the flight lesson, nothing else. Everything else is 100% self study. They don't even tell you what to self study. Then they start asking you questions about stuff that you didn't even think that you're supposed to study/know. This self study thing is completely new to me. It was definitely a long, slow hard climb at first. But I've gotten better.

I'm more used to the college way of studying. Where they give you a syllabus with everything that you're supposed to know and study to be prepared for the test and the whole semester. They call that spoon feeding now.

This is the standard for accelerated flight training. So, if you can't hack it then it might be better to look at a local FBO instead.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

OK, what I will tell you will likely not be all too popular to say on a pilot board, but what exactly do you do for a living? Do you work a high-paying job that furnishes you with good benefits? Are you settled into a cushy lifestyle? Perhaps you would be better off just flying for fun and buying an airplane?

Because realistically you will not sit in the right seat of a jet until you are 40 years old, and then the question becomes do you want to undergo a lot of sacrifice for your passion? Because you will need a lot of passion to rise from student pilot to regional airline/corporate pilot first officer in those four years assuming that it does not take longer, and if you should be strapped with debt, burdened by a house mortgage, shackled to a wife and children, aviation is most certianly not an easy game to play in middle age.

That said, if you do have the necessary passion to forego whichever blessings you have now, do it, because I do genuinely feel that flying for a living is also a blessing that not many people out of the 7 billion on this Earth will ever find the pleasure of experiencing, and for that alone it is worth every pain, burden, torture to do this duty for a living, and I do think many of my brethren and colleagues take it for granted oftentimes. I love to fly for a living, and I encourage everyone whom I meet to learn to fly...but be mindful, knowing that you will have to give many things up if you do.

Also know, once you do make it and you become a captain for a regional airline or corporate firm you will one day make six-figures if you keep working hard, although it will take some time for this happen as you climb the seniority-ladder. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. At 40 or even 45, you still have time to get on with a low cost carrier and you will make decent money. Another caveat: don't bust any checkrides especially part 135/part 121 training events. Honestly, if you get more than 3 busts even primary training busts, it will be harder to rise out of the regionals. So treat every checkride as if your life hinges upon it.

There definitely is potential to make money in aviation, but the right steps must be taken in order it to be realized: it is not easy, but it could be rewarding regardless of the path which you choose to tread.

 

[trafficinsight]

ATP will likely not be "better" but for me when I went for my CFI's I chose it because it was fast and disciplined. I had two jobs and no focus at home because every time I showed my face at the airport work was waiting for me, so it was much easier to arrange the three weeks off and just go full bore. Financing was the other nice part though I would avoid that if you can.

ATP is that it's fast and geared toward fast learners. If you're a slow or average learner it'll hurt badly. There are fantastic instructors there (and a few bad ones or "short timers") but they're often overworked so try your best to immerse yourself in study and be the kind of person who makes their job easy.

Like many others, I'd suggest getting your private on your own, seeing how well you're picking things up, and then if you think ATP type schools are a good fit, go for it.

Come fly for a living, it's great

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[ubet]

The job I am in now is more a lifestyle way of life than a job. It's all I have ever done to earn a paycheck. Hell it's all I have done since I was in grade school. Pay sucks, but we've made a comfortable living. Wife and I are used to not being together 7 nights a week. In 13 years together, we've lived with each other 7 nights a week for two years. So separation is something we're used to. The money isn't why I want to do this, it is a plus, but I want to do it because I have always been interested in it and it excites me to think about, like this job used to.

I am a quick learner, especially hands on. Out of a book, that's where it's a little tougher for me. But I haven't studied out of a text book since 04, when I was in college and barely opened it then. But passed most classes very easy without caring or applying myself.

This is something I am going to obviously apply myself too. Getting my ppl is going to happen before I quit, move the wife to town and quit the only industry I have ever known. To make sure this is the route I want to go. That and it'll give us time to pile up money, and get our affairs in order.

The only debt we have is a pickup payment. We will have to rent a house for her though. I'm going to save until I won't need to borrow much more than 30k, or less. So we're not 95k in debt and me starting a new career at the bottom.



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[trafficinsight]

Well the good news is that it sounds like you'd actually be home more often

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[JDean3204]

Well the good news is that it sounds like you'd actually be home more often

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This^^

If you live in base as an airline pilot, you will be home a lot more than any other job out there. You will most likely annoy your wife because your home so much, that’s when you pick up a premium pay trip and make some $$! If I didn’t pick up extra trips to cover bills, I’d be home about 15 days a month, that is at home all day with no ties to work. When I was on reserve last year, my neighbors thought I was unemployed. It was great. Now if you decide to commute, especially at a regional, that will shave a bunch of days off at home until you have the seniority to bid commutable trips.

I’ve had my fair share of piss and moaning on here, but that was just from the compensation side of things when early on in this career. Once the money gets better, I will have to pinch myself every now and then to make sure this all isn’t a dream.

My one piece of advice is to make sure your wife knows all of the details you do. The low pay, time away and stress you will go through early on is hard on a marriage, so keeping things clearly communicated as far as expectations will help.

Best of luck!!

 

[ubet]

This^^

If you live in base as an airline pilot, you will be home a lot more than any other job out there. You will most likely annoy your wife because your home so much, that’s when you pick up a premium pay trip and make some $$! If I didn’t pick up extra trips to cover bills, I’d be home about 15 days a month, that is at home all day with no ties to work. When I was on reserve last year, my neighbors thought I was unemployed. It was great. Now if you decide to commute, especially at a regional, that will shave a bunch of days off at home until you have the seniority to bid commutable trips.

I’ve had my fair share of piss and moaning on here, but that was just from the compensation side of things when early on in this career. Once the money gets better, I will have to pinch myself every now and then to make sure this all isn’t a dream.

My one piece of advice is to make sure your wife knows all of the details you do. The low pay, time away and stress you will go through early on is hard on a marriage, so keeping things clearly communicated as far as expectations will help.

Best of luck!!

She's used to me making little money! We have that down pat. She's usually the one away, so this will be different, but we have been down this road A LOT. As in months without seeing each other. I appreciate all the advice.

When you say "low pay" are you meaning
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[JDean3204]

She's used to me making little money! We have that down pat. She's usually the one away, so this will be different, but we have been down this road A LOT. As in months without seeing each other. I appreciate all the advice.

When you say "low pay" are you meaning
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“Low pay” to me is below 35k. In 2015 I made 18k my first year as a pilot. That was very common for years, even regional first year was around 20-25k. I don’t think there are any gigs paying that low requiring you full time anymore, even CFI’s are close to 40k now. Those time building gigs will be the leaner years for sure, but if you’re used to making that little then all is good.

All depends which regional, but including the bonuses you’ll be close to 60k first year. I’ve heard some places like Air Wisconsin you’re in the 90’s including the fat bonuses.

Hard pay throughout the year is on par with about 40k a year at most places (not including per diem), then second year a little bump. Once you upgrade you should be 65k plus. The pay has gone up dramatically in the last three years across the board, which is good!

 

[ubet]

Yeah we can make it on me making 35k I think. And I can pick up side stuff too. I'm worried about building time though.

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