Long Term Regional Career
- Thread starter BrettInLJ
- Start date
Aeronautik
New Member
Yeah I'm not expecting to see JetBlue around in the long run, either. I, too, want nothing more than to fly for Delta, United, American, etc..., the old timers, but right now I'd be thrilled to be hired by Skywest out of college. My goal was to make it to a legacy by 26, which would have been doable for me 10 years ago, but now I just hope I can make it onto one in my career. I do not want to retire at Mesaba or Skywest. I'd be happy to stay there for a few good years, but not more than that.
Lets be honest with each other, though. None of us have a darn clue about what the industry will look like in 10 years. We really don't. Captains at the legacies are still topping off at 250K (that number used to be 350, but I don't know if we'll ever see that again). Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
)
Lets be honest with each other, though. None of us have a darn clue about what the industry will look like in 10 years. We really don't. Captains at the legacies are still topping off at 250K (that number used to be 350, but I don't know if we'll ever see that again). Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
)
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It's not going to wear off. It's part of the American culture.
Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not going to wear off. It's part of the American culture.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
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Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
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Yeah, I'm with Lloyd on this one. No-frills has been around since the 70s, so it's a bit more than the latest "fad." JetBlue and SWA might be the latest media craze, but SWA was considered the devil in the early 80s. It was a by-product of de-regulation doomed to fail. It didn't, and we see the way the industry is swinging now. I honestly blame all the security issues on the drop in business travel. It's so much easier to get a deal with Netjets, Citation Shares, or one of the fractionals, and you don't have to deal with the TSA. I'm not saying do away with security, I'm just saying streamline it a little and aim for consistancy. Why MEM has ONE security line for a whole concourse boggles my mind.......
Add netmeeting, conference calls and high speed internet, and you really start loosing the high dollar, refundable, last minute travelling business people. That's who United, Delta and Continental built their structures on in the 80s. Now Joe Average and his family of four are the dominate travellers, and they want low prices.
Once all this no-frills B.S. wears off, I think the industry will pick up again slowly (based on my very limited experience
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm with Lloyd on this one. No-frills has been around since the 70s, so it's a bit more than the latest "fad." JetBlue and SWA might be the latest media craze, but SWA was considered the devil in the early 80s. It was a by-product of de-regulation doomed to fail. It didn't, and we see the way the industry is swinging now. I honestly blame all the security issues on the drop in business travel. It's so much easier to get a deal with Netjets, Citation Shares, or one of the fractionals, and you don't have to deal with the TSA. I'm not saying do away with security, I'm just saying streamline it a little and aim for consistancy. Why MEM has ONE security line for a whole concourse boggles my mind.......
Add netmeeting, conference calls and high speed internet, and you really start loosing the high dollar, refundable, last minute travelling business people. That's who United, Delta and Continental built their structures on in the 80s. Now Joe Average and his family of four are the dominate travellers, and they want low prices.
aloft
New Member
This is an effect of the war on the middle class; the upper class doesn't fly commercially anymore, and the middle class can't afford anything more than no-frills budget fares. Under this president, THAT won't change, either. As a result, it's bye-bye to the carriers dependent upon full-fare business travelers to stay afloat, and hello to the Greyhounds of the skies catering to the "stack it deep, sell it cheap" model.
This is a mixed bag for those of us planning on riding up front; it means increased opportunities across the board, especially in the charter/corporate sector, but after the big guys go down, I don't think we'll see pilot salaries above $200k ever again. More and more automation will see to that, and the day will come when no pilots are required at all.
What HAS to change is the flight-time model under which flight crews are paid; with the great salaries and benefits packages going away, it's time to start being paid for every hour on the clock.
FL270
New Member
Needless to say I'm not in agreement with what Aloft said in most of his post, but the last part is completely accurate. You don't see until you are in this business how much time you spend beholden to the company where you don't get paid a single dime. Reserve? Nothing, unless you're out of base, then just per diem. Sitting at the gate, waiting out a three hour ATC delay? Nothing except per diem. Three hour "airport appreciation" sits mid-trip? Once again ... Then let's not even talk about those of us who commute (no, I'm not trying to say I should get paid for my commute too!) and spend a lot of time in crashpads.
The entire industry is evolving. What looks good today may not ten years from now, and vice versa. ACA/Independence is a good example ... a senior guy there hired on ten years ago flying J-31s for United Express ... now he's sitting left-seat on the A-319. How's that for evolution? Yeah, they might be in trouble at the moment, but you see my general point.
Hell, look at my own airline. We have 1998 hires here that came to a tiny airline with less than 200 pilots flying J-31s and Saabs. Now they are the top 100 or so guys in a pilot group of over 1000 (more pilots than AirTran, by the way) flying 50 or 70 seat jets.
I was a little bummed nobody mentioned my airline in the list of "good" regionals. We've taken our last planned EMB-145 delivery. We have 18 new airplanes coming in 2005, all EMB-170s, ten for United and the first eight for Delta. And that's just the growth that's been announced so far. We have a contract that got improvements in every major area over its predecessor in a post-9/11 environment and a pilot group committed to advancing it further the next time around.
The entire industry is evolving. What looks good today may not ten years from now, and vice versa. ACA/Independence is a good example ... a senior guy there hired on ten years ago flying J-31s for United Express ... now he's sitting left-seat on the A-319. How's that for evolution? Yeah, they might be in trouble at the moment, but you see my general point.
Hell, look at my own airline. We have 1998 hires here that came to a tiny airline with less than 200 pilots flying J-31s and Saabs. Now they are the top 100 or so guys in a pilot group of over 1000 (more pilots than AirTran, by the way) flying 50 or 70 seat jets.
I was a little bummed nobody mentioned my airline in the list of "good" regionals. We've taken our last planned EMB-145 delivery. We have 18 new airplanes coming in 2005, all EMB-170s, ten for United and the first eight for Delta. And that's just the growth that's been announced so far. We have a contract that got improvements in every major area over its predecessor in a post-9/11 environment and a pilot group committed to advancing it further the next time around.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
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What HAS to change is the flight-time model under which flight crews are paid; with the great salaries and benefits packages going away, it's time to start being paid for every hour on the clock.
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I agree 1000%.
~wheelsup
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Me too. That way pilots could get a higher pay even if their flight rates are low.
[ QUOTE ]
What HAS to change is the flight-time model under which flight crews are paid; with the great salaries and benefits packages going away, it's time to start being paid for every hour on the clock.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 1000%.
~wheelsup
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Me too. That way pilots could get a higher pay even if their flight rates are low.
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BTW, here is a list of airlines that don't depend on feeder carriers:
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<ul type="square">
[*]AIRTRAN
True, but doesn't serve small cities.
[*]ALASKA
Horizon
[*]ALOHA
Doesn't serve small cities.
[*]ATA
Chicago Express
[*]AMERICA WEST
Mesa
[*]FRONTIER
Horizon
[*]HAWAIIAN
No clue
[*]INDEPENDENCE
High cost, low price product <- questionable future
[*]JETBLUE
Doesn't serve small cities and has large gaps in route map.
[*]MIDWEST
Skyway
[*]SOUTHWEST
Doesn't serve small cities
[*]SPIRIT
No idea.
[*]SUN COUNTRY
No idea. [/list]
BTW, here is a list of airlines that don't depend on feeder carriers:
[/ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">
[*]AIRTRAN
True, but doesn't serve small cities.
[*]ALASKA
Horizon
[*]ALOHA
Doesn't serve small cities.
[*]ATA
Chicago Express
[*]AMERICA WEST
Mesa
[*]FRONTIER
Horizon
[*]HAWAIIAN
No clue
[*]INDEPENDENCE
High cost, low price product <- questionable future
[*]JETBLUE
Doesn't serve small cities and has large gaps in route map.
[*]MIDWEST
Skyway
[*]SOUTHWEST
Doesn't serve small cities
[*]SPIRIT
No idea.
[*]SUN COUNTRY
No idea. [/list]
I'm not sure if I'd compare Comair with USAir rates. Considering it takes 18 years to reach a position where you're earning $118/flight hour, I'm not sure if I'd commit to any employer for 18 years in order to someday earn a liveable salary. Considering that in 1987 $100K was a good chunk of change, but in 2005, $100K is perhaps a Honda Accord and the ability to pay for a mortgage in a median house in San Bernadino and a resultant two hour drive to the office every morning. And if $100K was a lot of money 18 years ago, now only somewhat of a financial equivalent to a $50K/year job 18 years ago, does anyone possible think even $100K in 2013 is going to be a reasonable wage, requisite with responsibility and experience? Heck, the house we bought in 2001 for a little over $300K is appraising four years later for almost $600K, I'd hate to see what it'd appraise for in 2013! And it's just a modest home.
But this is part of a larger picture. The middle class is absolutely dead. In our new "economy", there'll be highly compensated "keepers" like CEO's, upper-level managers and celebrities on one hand. And on the other will be a large lower and lower-middle (upper-lower?
) class clamoring to makes ends meet thru highly leveraged assets like homes, scooping into available credit to purchase certain "must have" luxuries and spending more time digging themselves into the debt hole.
Take a peek around, it's already happened!
But this is part of a larger picture. The middle class is absolutely dead. In our new "economy", there'll be highly compensated "keepers" like CEO's, upper-level managers and celebrities on one hand. And on the other will be a large lower and lower-middle (upper-lower?
Take a peek around, it's already happened!
Yup. One of the guys I flew with is paying darned near $40K/year in tuition alone for one of his kids.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for higher education and all, especially when the top jobs in your chosen profession are highly competitive and "highly preferred" if not absolutely mandatory to capture one of the highly compensated positions.
But the era of paternalistic employers where you work your fingers to the bone, receive a nice retirement and golden watch isn't dead, it's just moved over to the third world.
And once the cabotage laws are repealed, I'm afraid that aviation will follow. I'd like to think that the average consumer is more concerned with safety, but the truth in the matter is that if Air Nambibia d/b/a United Express threw a "friends fly free, $89 fare from JFK to LAX", the sound of people mouse-clicking on that rate on Expedia or Travelocity would deafen anyone within a few meters.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for higher education and all, especially when the top jobs in your chosen profession are highly competitive and "highly preferred" if not absolutely mandatory to capture one of the highly compensated positions.
But the era of paternalistic employers where you work your fingers to the bone, receive a nice retirement and golden watch isn't dead, it's just moved over to the third world.
And once the cabotage laws are repealed, I'm afraid that aviation will follow. I'd like to think that the average consumer is more concerned with safety, but the truth in the matter is that if Air Nambibia d/b/a United Express threw a "friends fly free, $89 fare from JFK to LAX", the sound of people mouse-clicking on that rate on Expedia or Travelocity would deafen anyone within a few meters.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Doug, I realize that the airlines listed mostly serve larger cities, and some have regionals that feed them.
The point was that if the legacies went under, then the regionals that depend on THOSE legacies would go under (possibly) but there would still be airlines left flying, unlike another poster stated.
~wheelsup
The point was that if the legacies went under, then the regionals that depend on THOSE legacies would go under (possibly) but there would still be airlines left flying, unlike another poster stated.
~wheelsup
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Here's a scary thought, correct me if I'm off base. Using this model (airlines should pay for your time on duty):
Typical schedules are what, 80 hours per month of flying? Let's go with an average f/o salary of $28/hr (not junior, not senior).
$28/hr x 80 hrs = $2,240 per month before taxes income (not including per diem).
Now, I'm not sure what the regional schedules are like, but I heard from a old crusty pilot that your time away from base was somewhere in the range of 3 times your monthly hourly flight time.
So you're away from base 80 hours x 3 = 240 hours per month.
$2,240 / 240 hours = $9.33 per hour. Ouch. An easier way would be to divide the hourly pay by 3 I suppose.
This brings up the question, should the airline pay you for your time in a hotel? If you fly 4 hours in one day and do a 15 hour layover, how should that be handled? Or should the pay be PER DAY, where it's x about of pay per day no matter how much you fly?
~wheelsup
Typical schedules are what, 80 hours per month of flying? Let's go with an average f/o salary of $28/hr (not junior, not senior).
$28/hr x 80 hrs = $2,240 per month before taxes income (not including per diem).
Now, I'm not sure what the regional schedules are like, but I heard from a old crusty pilot that your time away from base was somewhere in the range of 3 times your monthly hourly flight time.
So you're away from base 80 hours x 3 = 240 hours per month.
$2,240 / 240 hours = $9.33 per hour. Ouch. An easier way would be to divide the hourly pay by 3 I suppose.
This brings up the question, should the airline pay you for your time in a hotel? If you fly 4 hours in one day and do a 15 hour layover, how should that be handled? Or should the pay be PER DAY, where it's x about of pay per day no matter how much you fly?
~wheelsup
G
Guest
Guest
Maybe they should have these in all airports:
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This brings up the question, should the airline pay you for your time in a hotel?
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Sure! It'd create less of an incentive for the airline to fly/pay you for only 4 hours and lay over in a hotel for 18 hours.
Also, minimum 'suit up' pay as well. Otherwise there'll be an incentive to fly a pilot from LAX to LAS (about 50 mins), sit him around the airport for hours and fly back to LAX and earn less than two hours of pay for being around the airport for up to 16 hours. Just an extreme example for the sake of the discussion.
This brings up the question, should the airline pay you for your time in a hotel?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure! It'd create less of an incentive for the airline to fly/pay you for only 4 hours and lay over in a hotel for 18 hours.
Also, minimum 'suit up' pay as well. Otherwise there'll be an incentive to fly a pilot from LAX to LAS (about 50 mins), sit him around the airport for hours and fly back to LAX and earn less than two hours of pay for being around the airport for up to 16 hours. Just an extreme example for the sake of the discussion.
