Logging time on long intl' flights...

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Cherokee_Cruiser

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Logging time on long intl\' flights...

This question is for anyone who does/knows intl' flying (hint hint, A300Capt!)

If you're on a flight that has the normal Capt and F/O positions, but also requires a relief Capt and relief F/O... for the time you (either capt/ F/O) take your break so the ohter guy can fly, can YOU still log that as flight time? If not, how does it work?

Say there's a 13 hour flight. Normal capt and Normal F/O fly for 7.5 hours, and relief capt + relief F/O fly for 7.5 hours. Will all of them log only 7.5 hours, or all 13 hours ???

Thanks!
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

[ QUOTE ]
This question is for anyone who does/knows intl' flying (hint hint, A300Capt!)

If you're on a flight that has the normal Capt and F/O positions, but also requires a relief Capt and relief F/O... for the time you (either capt/ F/O) take your break so the ohter guy can fly, can YOU still log that as flight time? If not, how does it work?

Say there's a 13 hour flight. Normal capt and Normal F/O fly for 7.5 hours, and relief capt + relief F/O fly for 7.5 hours. Will all of them log only 7.5 hours, or all 13 hours ???

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think these guys care about logging issues at this state of the game.

But if they do, I am going to take a stab. Do you think the jumpseater logs time? No. So do you think they log time while not at the controls? I don't think so.
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

I think this is only an issue when they have 4 members in the flight crew. As if you had 3, the FAA requires that - therefore they are all required crewmembers and can log time. I think what would be wild though, is how few landings some of these guys have. Imagine landing 1 out of every 4 flights - that is like once every 2 weeks. I know Don knows how that feels - but that is because with his old schedule he used to do and out and back once every 2 weeks.
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

I think EN's right...if the company's FOM calls for 3-4 pilots for the flight, then all are required crew and all can log the time. In my B777 DVD (JustPlaneVideos.com), the relief pilot in the jumpseat doesn't just sit there and read magazines, he's included by the capt in the briefs, is assigned emergency action items, is involved in the cockpit decisionmaking process and is making PA announcements so the capt and FO don't have to. In other words, the CA is exercising good CRM by making use of all available crew resources.
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

Actually had dinner with an ex-instructor a couple of weeks ago that now flies as an SO with Qantas on the B744.

I personally don't really understand it - but they do in fact log the time for the entire flight - whether they're sleeping in the back or sitting up front. He said for something like Sydney-LA, he'd be at the controls for a 4 hour period (give or take) and then change up.

Not too sure on the American situation, but I think I remember hearing that Cathay employs a similar method as Qantas.
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

"I don't really think these guys care about logging issues at this state of the game."

Speaking only for myself.....very true. All I care about is if I'm getting paid or not....hehe.

I should know this for sure, since I'm now internationally blessed and all, but I'd assume you could log any time you're acting as a required crewmember...even if you're in the bunk....except that there is no bunk on our 767's and there are no seats outside of the flight deck.

The IRO (relief guy) needs a type rating and should be able to log PIC time when he's acting as the PIC. When he's not PIC but acting as the F/O, he'd log it as SIC. How he'd log it when he's neither PIC or SIC is beyond me....but he's still a required crewmember. Maybe you need to start a new column for "crew meal warmer/oven monitor" when you start to do this kind of flying.

I used to fly on Air Canada a lot on their YVR-FRA run. I noticed that usually the off duty pilot would rest in business class, or back in coach if business was full. At least they have the option of getting away from the flight deck enviornment to get some rest. That's not an option for us and have always thought it's wrong the way our 767's are set up for international. The MD11's have bunks.....
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

[ QUOTE ]
Actually had dinner with an ex-instructor a couple of weeks ago that now flies as an SO with Qantas on the B744.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would the SO be a flight engineer?
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

Naw.. if I'm right the SO is a basically a relief pilot that's only allowed to be in command of the aircraft above 10,000 ft or something like that. Not allowed to take off or land, either. If any of this is off, someone just clear it up for me!
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

I actually talked to a retired 777 captain from American airline and went through his logbook at FBO. I asked how do you log time on an intl' flights. This is what I know - American take 3 pilots on their cross pond or transpacific flights. All 3 pilots are required. As a captain, he logged all the flight time in his logbook(a lot of ORD to LHR and ORD to NRT) since he is PIC.


adreamer
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

American and United do one captain and the rest FOs, sometimes on a really long flight it's a cruise first officer.

Northwest uses two complete crews...a takeoff captain and FO and a landing captain and FO.

Some money is saved in the AAL / UAL method.
 
Re: Logging time on long intl\' flights...

On flights requiring a double crew, we (FedEx) normally uses 2 capts and 2 f/o's. When only one relief pilot is required, we usually use an F/O, but a Capt can be used as well.

As for logging, in any case, we have one Capt of record who "signs" for the flight, and that Capt can log it. However, for the purposes of time for IOE and consolidation, it is a bit different, where the max is 8 hrs and on double crews they only log half of it, essentially.

Outside of that, I think that it all can be legally logged. As for the relief capt/f/o logging PIC, technically speaking, they would not be acting in that capacity, but, of course, anyone can log PIC if they're rated and sole manipulator. It's kind of, well, doesn't look too good if you do log PIC if you're not actually PIC, in my opinion.
 
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