Logging time in Citation Bravo

TrustMeI'maPilot said:
Sorry don't have links at this time but the FAA has put out an interpretation that says a rated pilot can log SIC even if flying with a PIC with a single pilot type.
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Only in the cases that Jordan brought up. In part 91 if the PIC is single pilot typed there will be no logging of SIC. The OP would only be able to log PIC as the soul manipulator of the flight controls like SteveC said.

Alternating legs would be the best course of action. Insurance shouldn't get mad as the other guy can still be the acting PIC on the flight.

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Maurus said:
Only in the cases that Jordan brought up. In part 91 if the PIC is single pilot typed there will be no logging of SIC. The OP would only be able to log PIC as the soul manipulator of the flight controls like SteveC said.

Alternating legs would be the best course of action. Insurance shouldn't get mad as the other guy can still be the acting PIC on the flight.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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I'm still trying to find the interpretation, I read it awhile ago. I'm specifically talking about jets that are typed certificated for two pilots, but you can get a single pilot waiver, like a Phenom 300. I don't have a list of exactly which planes that includes. I'm not talking about planes like a C551 where it's type certificate is for one pilot.

From the interpretation I read, the FAA says that if the PIC has a SP waiver on a plane that requires two pilots, he can elect to use the waiver or not on any given flight. So long as you meet the SIC requirements and he wants you on board, you can log SIC.

I'm only talking Part 91 here, never flown 135. I also could be completely wrong.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
I'm still trying to find the interpretation, I read it awhile ago. I'm specifically talking about jets that are typed certificated for two pilots, but you can get a single pilot waiver, like a Phenom 300. I don't have a list of exactly which planes that includes. I'm not talking about planes like a C551 where it's type certificate is for one pilot.

From the interpretation I read, the FAA says that if the PIC has a SP waiver on a plane that requires two pilots, he can elect to use the waiver or not on any given flight. So long as you meet the SIC requirements and he wants you on board, you can log SIC.

I'm only talking Part 91 here, never flown 135. I also could be completely wrong.
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That would make sense to me. Very similar to 135 operations when you have the autopilot in lieu of an SIC exemptipn. The operator can choose whether or not to use the exemption for each flight. I'm not familiar with the interp that you're talking about on the 91 ops, but I'd be interested in seeing it of you can find it.
 
1. The Bravo is a 2 pilot airplane.

2. A pilot can get an exemption to fly it single pilot. If you do not have the exemption onboard the airplane it is a 2 pilot airplane. It is not just a matter of not having "SIC required" on your certificate.
 
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terdferg23 said:
Understand Jordan the not understanding the question. I believe switching legs would work best. I wouldn't be covered under insurance due to my hours, but I'm guessing the FAA wouldn't care much about that. I didn't know there was an SIC rating, but I can't see how that would help in the long run....maybe total time?
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If the other pilot has a single pilot type, you can't really log anything. If he does not, you log SIC (you don't even need a type to do so). If you end up with a PIC type, up to you if you want to log the legs you fly, but keep in mind, most employers only care about who the acting PIC was. I would make a logbook column for "91 PIC" in that case (while employers won't care, insurance companies might)
 
If an airplane is certified for a two pilot crew, as the bravo is, you may log the time as sic as long as you are qualified amel and have met the training requirements in 61.55. The bravo also may be operated single pilot by a pic with the single pilot type. This is different that a newer citation that is certified single pilot. If both bravo pilots are pic typed it's up to them or the owner who is acting pic. This is all for part 91.
 
hemaybedid said:
The bravo also may be operated single pilot by a pic with the single pilot type..
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That is only part of it on the 500 series. Having the single pilot type only allows the pilot to fly the 501 and 551 single pilot. To fly the others single pilot you must meet other requirements, have extra training and hold a current single pilot exemption such as Cessna's 4050 exemption.

To fly the Bravo single pilot the pilot has to have the exemption.
 
SteveC said:
That would make sense to me. Very similar to 135 operations when you have the autopilot in lieu of an SIC exemptipn. The operator can choose whether or not to use the exemption for each flight. I'm not familiar with the interp that you're talking about on the 91 ops, but I'd be interested in seeing it of you can find it.
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I did a little more research. I was partly right and mostly wrong. I guess the situation I'm talking about is called the Cessna exemption and is pretty rare. It only deals with a few Citation models, though it includes the Bravo so is applicable to the OP. Basically several of the Citation models got typed as two pilot airplanes and were then granted exemptions for single pilot by the FAA. In this situation, which the OP asked about, there is supposed to be an SIC unless the PIC has the exemption. If the PIC has the exemption it depends on the wording of his/her exemption on whether he can chose to use an SIC.

Now what most of you guys are referring to are planes that have single pilot or two pilots listed on the TCDS. Which is most single pilot jets. I was wrong above because the Phenom 300 falls in this category.

According to the Nichols interpretation, if the plane and PIC are certified for single pilot, a second pilot can only log SIC for the time the aircraft doesn't meet the single pilot requirements (the equipment requirements are listed in the TCDS, for example the autopilot). Obviously the second pilot can log PIC as sole manipulator if he/she is typed though.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2009/Nichols.pdf

So to the OP, in your situation, if the PIC does not get the single pilot exemption, you can log SIC all day long. If he is going to get the single pilot exemption, you need to read it to see what is allowed.

And again this is for part 91 only.
 
That makes sense. I'll have to wait and see what the other pilot gets exempted on (if anything). I should be getting PIC typed, but it would nice to be able to log SIC on legs that I'm not the sole manipulator.

Thanks for the link
 
If the PIC does get his exemption the OP can still legally log SIC if the PIC has a current 61.58 in the airplane and one of the required items in the exemption is not on board or broken. The easiest would be to not have the exemption on the airplane when operating with 2 pilots, if you want to follow the letter of the law.

I think all of this is kind of silly. Since the Bravo is a 2 pilot airplane I think the OP would really have to piss off someone to get in trouble for logging SIC time when the exemption paperwork is onboard.

I do not know of an exemption that is good for 135 work.

By the way I have 12 years experience in the CE-500 series and have held the SP exemption for the last 6 years. Every year when I go to recurrent I get my exemption renewed and a 61.58 sign off.
 
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