Logging Sim Time with Students

[SierraPilot123]

Do you guys log your time in an approved FTD that you fly with students?

For example in instruement traning we do a lot of the work in an approved FTD. Should I simply log Dual Given or log the time I am in the FTD with the student?

I am not finding this info in the FARs

Thanks

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I don't log it, and I don't log it in the student's logbook as flight training.

 

[bike21]

I don't log it, and I don't log it in the student's logbook as flight training.

Mojo - are you saying you don't log in your student's logbook at all?...or just not in the 'TT' column.

SierraPilot - yes, it should be logged for a variety of reasons.

For you:

- shows the dual given in case a Fed needs to question whether or not your student was IFR current or not (your logbooks can be a nice source for backup training records)
- it is nice to keep track of all dual given IMO...as sort of CYA

For the student:

- legality reasons (similar to above for currency)
- students often need to show FTD time to satisfy the requirements for a rating
- they might need the FTD time to help count toward an interview for instrument time someday down the road

I am sure there are other reasons to be listed, but those are a few. I highly recommend logging it in both logbooks.

As far as what to log....

CFI: 'Dual Given' column only

Student: 'FTD', 'Approaches' and 'Dual Received' columns and of course pertinent remarks

Hope this helps!

 

[Clocks]

I never logged dual given in the sim. I see it (right or wrong) similar to giving ground school, which I don't log either. I might have thought differently if I was looking at CFI as a long term career option (maybe a better paying flight school might care how much dual given I have given in an FTD?)

If I wanted to log it (I didn't see any need to) I would have made a separate column in Logbook Pro for it and kept the data in there. I think the reason you aren't seeing it in the FARs is because a CFI doesn't need to log "dual given" for any certificates or ratings.

And of course always log it in your student's book.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Mojo - are you saying you don't log in your student's logbook at all?...or just not in the 'TT' column.

I log it as "Simlulator or FTD" and as "Simulated Instrument" in the student's logbook, so they can apply it towards their training, but I don't log it as flight training in their logbook.

 

[bike21]

I log it as "Simlulator or FTD" and as "Simulated Instrument" in the student's logbook, so they can apply it towards their training, but I don't log it as flight training in their logbook.

Cool, however it doesn't count as 'Simulated Instrument' in the logbook. It is redundant logging of FTD time and cannot be counted twice. Only FTD, Dual Received and Approaches may be logged. The 'Simulated Instrument' only counts when in the actual airplane.

Not calling you out, but want to help you here in case you get down the road and someone questions you on it. Trust me on this one, I have been over this one many times as a former chief pilot.

 

[exleardriver]

Cool, however it doesn't count as 'Simulated Instrument' in the logbook. It is redundant logging of FTD time and cannot be counted twice. Only FTD, Dual Received and Approaches may be logged. The 'Simulated Instrument' only counts when in the actual airplane.

Not calling you out, but want to help you here in case you get down the road and someone questions you on it. Trust me on this one, I have been over this one many times as a former chief pilot.

+1. it may not be counted towards total time either as others have mentioned, as it's not considered an aircraft. if it's a full motion, approved sim, as back when i did my lear type and recurrent lear training, things change.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Cool, however it doesn't count as 'Simulated Instrument' in the logbook. It is redundant logging of FTD time and cannot be counted twice. Only FTD, Dual Received and Approaches may be logged. The 'Simulated Instrument' only counts when in the actual airplane.

Not calling you out, but want to help you here in case you get down the road and someone questions you on it. Trust me on this one, I have been over this one many times as a former chief pilot.

Not calling you out, either, but any references? Look at 61.51:

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.

 

[bike21]

Not calling you out, either, but any references?

Hmm...might have to get back to you on that one. Lemme check...

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I updated the post with a quote from 61.51.

 

[bike21]

Didn't find a reference yet, maybe someone else can chime in. It might be hard to find. But if you think about, it would could be considered 'double dipping' since FTD time always counts as instrument time.

For instance if an Instrument student did 20 hours in the FTD and logged it as you are suggesting, they would suddenly have 40 hours of instrument time.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Didn't find a reference yet, maybe someone else can chime in. It might be hard to find. But if you think about, it would could be considered 'double dipping' since FTD time always counts as instrument time.

For instance if an Instrument student did 20 hours in the FTD and logged it as you are suggesting, they would suddenly have 40 hours of instrument time.

No, they would have 20 hours in the FTD + whatever instrument time they have in the airplane, which would equal total instrument time. The 8710 has an Instrument column, with rows for Airplanes, Simulator, FTD, etc...

Here are some interesting threads, and part of the reason why (Along with the reg I posted above) I log it as Sim, and Sim. Instrument, but not Flight Training :

http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/18349-dual-received-sim.html
http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/28740-logging-dual-given.html

 

[bike21]

No, they would have 20 hours in the FTD + whatever instrument time they have in the airplane, which would equal total instrument time. The 8710 has an Instrument column, with rows for Airplanes, Simulator, FTD, etc...

Hmmm....not quite, here is why:

For arguments sake, let's say the student from day 1 has zero FTD or instrument time (forget about PPL stuff for now).

They then proceed to do 20 hours in the FTD. You log each lesson in both columns in their logbook - 'FTD' and 'Simulated Instrument'.

Now, someone completely unfamiliar with this 'argument' looks at said student's logbook and says, "oh you have 40 hours of instrument time (counting toward a rating or hiring mins for instance) since your 'FTD' column totals to 20 hours and your 'Simulated Instrument' column totals to 20 hours.

I kind of see what you are saying about the 8710, however the student would have to go back and subtract the time from each FTD session in his 'Simulated Instrument' columns when adding up 'Instrument' time for the 'Airplanes' section of the 8710. I think you need to see the intent of this. The 'Simulated Instrument' column in the logbook is meant for airplanes only. FTD is just plain FTD. It always counts for 'Instrument' time.

If we aren't on the same page yet, I think I will let someone else chime in with perhaps a different angle

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Now, someone completely unfamiliar with this 'argument' looks at said student's logbook and says, "oh you have 40 hours of instrument time (counting toward a rating or hiring mins for instance) since your 'FTD' column totals to 20 hours and your 'Simulated Instrument' column totals to 20 hours.

What reference do you have that says FTD is necessarily instrument time? This is an assumption you are making, but haven't provided a reference that this is the case.

If you have one, please let me know. Whereas, I have a reference, direct from 61.51, that says you are required to log simulated instrument time in the log book, whether it was in a flight training device or an airplane.

It always counts for 'Instrument' time.

According to who? Why can't you teach complex airplane operations or multi-engine operations to someone in an FTD? You can do other things in a Sim or FTD, other than instrument training. It clearly states in 61.129 that you can train someone for their Commercial Certificate in an FTD or Sim and that they can log the experience towards the experience requirements.

The 'Simulated Instrument' column in the logbook is meant for airplanes only.

According to who?

You are making a lot of assumptions, but listing no references.

 

[bike21]

You are making a lot of assumptions, but listing no references.

I will certainly admit some of this is based off of assumptions. A lot of things are and sometimes you have read through it all and see the intent. Unfortunately not all is black and white. But here is your reference from the FAA...

I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per § 61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” (Emphasis added: “in flight in an aircraft”). Furthermore, § 61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”

However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC flight time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross-country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”

I hope this is good enough. It might all be semantics, but my biggest concern is that you are not accidentally double-counting it and setting yourself and your students up for problems down the road.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I never logged dual given in the sim."

Is this what they teach you at ATP Clocks? I'm impressed..... (not)

It's called "training time" now. Check 61.1 (b) (16)

The only way your are right is if what ATP calls a "sim" is neither an approved ground trainer or flight simulator. If that's the case, then ATP has much bigger problems than your silly reg misinterpretation.

 

[exleardriver]

not sure who's necessarily arguing what here..i got lost scanning through it, but in any case i log for the trainee, that training given in an approved ftd as 'dual received', 'ftd', and 'simulated instrument' for that portion of the simulated flight in simulated instrument conditions (an estimate as always), and noted the names of the simulated approaches in the remarks section/number of simulated approaches flown in the proper column. 61.51(g)(4) further stipulates that an authorized instructor must be present to log instrument time in a ftd. i do not log it as 'flight time' or under any 'category and class' aircraft time. for an instrument rating, 61.65(e) provides for an authorized instructor to give instrument instruction in a ftd..up to 30 hours may be applied if the ftd is maintained in accordance with 142.59..only 20 hours if the ftd is not maintained with this more stringent requirement.

 

[BillH]

"I never logged dual given in the sim."

Is this what they teach you at ATP Clocks? I'm impressed..... (not)

It's called "training time" now. Check 61.1 (b) (16)

The only way your are right is if what ATP calls a "sim" is neither an approved ground trainer or flight simulator. If that's the case, then ATP has much bigger problems than your silly reg misinterpretation.

You looking in a brand new Far AIM? 61.1 (b) (16) does not appear to be in mine...

 

[DE727UPS]

"You looking in a brand new Far AIM? 61.1 (b) (16) does not appear to be in mine..."

I'm looking at the internet. Try this:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.1&idno=14

It says that if you are giving "dual" in a "sim", you can log the time as "dual given" in your logbook. The FAA has introduced some new terminology that ATP CFI's seem to have a hard time grasping. It's a basic concept, though. If you're a CFI, and your giving instruction in an approved ground trainer, you can log the time as "dual given". This concept hasn't changed in 20 years.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The FAR makes it very clear that instrument time in a sim counts as:

For the student:

• simulated instrument
• training received
• pilot time (not "flight" time)

For the instructor:

• training given (although there is no FAR that requires it to be logged)
• pilot time (not "flight" time)

You can look at 61.51, and the definitions of "flight time" time and "pilot time" in 1.1 and 61.1.

I think that what some of you are arguing about, with the talk of "double dipping," are bookkeeping methods, not rules.

For example, stuff done in a sim is "simulated instrument time," so you =could= put it in the simulated instrument column. But, because it's not flight time, when you go to fill out an 8710 (or a job application that asks for flight time) you will have to do some arithmetic. It's probably for that reason that many logbooks label their simulated instrument column "hood" and people don't record the sim/FTD time there. Same for "total time." If your "total time" column is a total "flight" time column, noting done in a sim or FTD belongs there; if you choose to use it to record all "pilot time" go ahead - just be ready to do the math.

The math isn't difficult, and I don't think one way or the other is "right" or "wrong" but I think that, whichever way you choose to do the bookkeeping, it needs to be consistent and clear.