Logging SIC Time

sport08

New Member
Hi everyone,

I recently joined an emergency flight service as a volunteer, which involves transporting patients from one airport to another. The organization's rules require a PIC and a SIC for every flight. I read from the regs that a person can log PIC or SIC if he is "acting as pilot in command on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification or the regulations under which the flight is conducted".




Take an emergency service flight in a C182 for example. Since requiring 2 pilots is a regulation of the organization, is it possible for one pilot to log PIC and the other to log SIC, or for both pilots to log PIC? If it's not possible, can the pilot who is acting as SIC even log it as part of his total flight time?
 
You can log whatever you want, will anyone care and/or respect it is a different question. SIC in a C182 is about as useful as FSX time. Eyebrows will raise, laughter may be heard.
 
Hi everyone,
I recently joined an emergency flight service as a volunteer, which involves transporting patients from one airport to another. The organization's rules require a PIC and a SIC for every flight. I read from the regs that a person can log PIC or SIC if he is "acting as pilot in command on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification or the regulations under which the flight is conducted".

Since requiring 2 pilots is a regulation of the organization,
FAA regulations, not something a company, organization, insurance company or Joe on 3rd Avenue makes up.
 
Sure, if you'd like to give the FAA a solid reason to revoke all your certificates and ratings.

Only if you use that time towards certificates/ratings/etc. (official stuff)
For example, I can keep a logbook of my Kerbal space program time. It's just a piece of paper with numbers on it.
I'll probably do countless orbits tomorrow, and fly a real airplane for a couple hours to. I can even write those down in the same book. Next to each other. And call it a logbook. As long as I don't go telling the FAA I have moon landings counting towards my night currency or put it on an 8710(again etc etc), I can do what I want.
 
Only if you use that time towards certificates/ratings/etc. (official stuff)
For example, I can keep a logbook of my Kerbal space program time. It's just a piece of paper with numbers on it.
I'll probably do countless orbits tomorrow, and fly a real airplane for a couple hours to. I can even write those down in the same book. Next to each other. And call it a logbook. As long as I don't go telling the FAA I have moon landings counting towards my night currency or put it on an 8710(again etc etc), I can do what I want.


Yes, you sure can treat your 61.51 logbook as a scrapbook for your moon landings so long as it's also pretty clear to someone without your sense of humor looking at the book as part of an official investigation against you that those entries are not being used to show your flight time and qualifications.

Moon landings themselves are hopefully pretty clear; other types of entries not so much, even if they don't technically count toward a requirement. I might be a little concerned in an investigation or lawsuit with providing an official record of my flight time that could lead one (who is definitely not my friend) to the idea that, since I treat my logbook as a joke, I might well treat my flying the same way. But that's just me.

Just an observation: through the years I've seen to opposite views on logbooks. "'it's your logbook, log whatever you want to" is one extreme; "don't log what the FAA specifically allows 'cause the airlines won't like it" is the other. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle in treating my logbook simply as an official record.
 
Moon landings themselves are hopefully pretty clear; other types of entries not so much

Whoooooaaaaa, slow down. You need to determine if these are day or night moon landings, based on your lunar landing craft's position on the surface of the moon. Bright side = day, dark side = night. Trust me you do NOT want to tangle with an LAA inspector on this one. (That's Lunar Aerospace Administration). When in doubt, stop in to your local SSSDO office (Space Sector Standards District Office).
 
Yes, you sure can treat your 61.51 logbook as a scrapbook for your moon landings so long as it's also pretty clear to someone without your sense of humor looking at the book as part of an official investigation against you that those entries are not being used to show your flight time and qualifications.

Moon landings themselves are hopefully pretty clear; other types of entries not so much, even if they don't technically count toward a requirement. I might be a little concerned in an investigation or lawsuit with providing an official record of my flight time that could lead one (who is definitely not my friend) to the idea that, since I treat my logbook as a joke, I might well treat my flying the same way. But that's just me.

Just an observation: through the years I've seen to opposite views on logbooks. "'it's your logbook, log whatever you want to" is one extreme; "don't log what the FAA specifically allows 'cause the airlines won't like it" is the other. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle in treating my logbook simply as an official record.

I wasn't aware anyone was required to log anything but currency and that required for ratings. I'm not sure how your flight time could otherwise be used against you. It's more of a data point for the NTSB.
 
I wasn't aware anyone was required to log anything but currency and that required for ratings. I'm not sure how your flight time could otherwise be used against you. It's more of a data point for the NTSB.

True, but when you do log something, you aren't allowed to falsify it.

I have my rubber stamp, gold stars and stickers. Some of the young airline students I've had make a face like I have killed a kitten if I try to put something like that in a logbook. Normal people say "wow, I like that taildragger stamp. What was the cub/citabria/etc like?"

Use common sense and all is good.
 
Whoooooaaaaa, slow down. You need to determine if these are day or night moon landings, based on your lunar landing craft's position on the surface of the moon. Bright side = day, dark side = night. Trust me you do NOT want to tangle with an LAA inspector on this one. (That's Lunar Aerospace Administration). When in doubt, stop in to your local SSSDO office (Space Sector Standards District Office).
Then do the moon landing approaches count in the 6 required? How does one get the tracking and hold requirements since the only moon VOR is NOTAMd out of service? Do orbits count?
 
I wasn't aware anyone was required to log anything but currency and that required for ratings. I'm not sure how your flight time could otherwise be used against you. It's more of a data point for the NTSB.

As the beagle said, you don't have to log anything but if you do it needs to be accurate.

In terms of how it could be used against you there's a NTSB case out there in which a pilot overstated his time in type in connection with a Westwind type rating on his ATP. The pilot defended on the basis that since he qualified for the rating based on his "real" time, the overstatement was not material (one of the requirements for a violation) and therefore not fraudulent. Sounds reasonable. It didn't go so well. The NTSB uphelld the FAA's emergency revocation of all of the pilots certifciates - pilot, instructor, and medical - under 61.59.

In that case it was an 8710-1 but, based on what the NTSB said about the overstatement, it could very well apply to logbook entries:

==============================
even if respondent had only needed 25 hours in the Westwind [he had claimed 210], the false statements as to his flight time would still be material because there was no way for the examiner to tell from the records tendered how many genuine hours he actually had in the Westwind. Under longstanding Board precedent, affirmed in the courts, such an undifferentiated statement of flight time is always material, since the decision to give the checkride was based on the entire amount of flight time claimed by respondent, not some lesser included, but unspecified, amount.
==============================

FAA v. Gonzalez (2003)
 
As the beagle said, you don't have to log anything but if you do it needs to be accurate.

In terms of how it could be used against you there's a NTSB case out there in which a pilot overstated his time in type in connection with a Westwind type rating on his ATP. The pilot defended on the basis that since he qualified for the rating based on his "real" time, the overstatement was not material (one of the requirements for a violation) and therefore not fraudulent. Sounds reasonable. It didn't go so well. The NTSB uphelld the FAA's emergency revocation of all of the pilots certifciates - pilot, instructor, and medical - under 61.59.

In that case it was an 8710-1 but, based on what the NTSB said about the overstatement, it could very well apply to logbook entries:

==============================
even if respondent had only needed 25 hours in the Westwind [he had claimed 210], the false statements as to his flight time would still be material because there was no way for the examiner to tell from the records tendered how many genuine hours he actually had in the Westwind. Under longstanding Board precedent, affirmed in the courts, such an undifferentiated statement of flight time is always material, since the decision to give the checkride was based on the entire amount of flight time claimed by respondent, not some lesser included, but unspecified, amount.
==============================

FAA v. Gonzalez (2003)

I'm aware you can't lie, especially to the FAA about the time. I was just taking the extreme position and talking about the moon landings and orbits and such done on a video game thrown in. Remember, not everyone is a professional pilot.
 
I'm aware you can't lie, especially to the FAA about the time. I was just taking the extreme position and talking about the moon landings and orbits and such done on a video game thrown in. Remember, not everyone is a professional pilot.

Of course not everyone's a professional pilot. Ferinstance, I'm not a professional pilot. :D
 
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