logging SIC time

T

tommyk

Well-Known Member
If I'm flying right seat part 91 in a CJ2 with a commercial multi IFR certificate and the reason that there is a co-pilot is because the person leasing the aircraft requires one can I log SIC time? Assuming that I have completed the three take offs and landings and all the other required items under 61.55. The only reason I'm thinking I might be able to get away with this is because of this sentence in 61.55.....
"A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember"

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Tommy
 
tommyk said:
If I'm flying right seat part 91 in a CJ2 with a commercial multi IFR certificate and the reason that there is a co-pilot is because the person leasing the aircraft requires one can I log SIC time? Assuming that I have completed the three take offs and landings and all the other required items under 61.55. The only reason I'm thinking I might be able to get away with this is because of this sentence in 61.55.....
"A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember"

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Tommy
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Grey area. Does the captains type rating say "SIC required?"
 
tommyk said:
If I'm flying right seat part 91 in a CJ2 with a commercial multi IFR certificate and the reason that there is a co-pilot is because the person leasing the aircraft requires one can I log SIC time?
Click to expand...

The aircraft is type certificated for a single pilot. You may not log SIC.

tommyk said:
Assuming that I have completed the three take offs and landings and all the other required items under 61.55.
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Passenger currency is only needed for the Acting PIC. A person Acting and SIC does not need the currency landings for passengers.

tommyk said:
The only reason I'm thinking I might be able to get away with this is because of this sentence in 61.55.....
"A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember"
Click to expand...

61.51(f) said:
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
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This is the proper regulation for Logging SIC time. Note that the only way you can log SIC in a single pilot aircraft is if you are required to have an SIC based on FAA regulations. Insurance or outside contracts requiring an SIC are not enough to allow you to log SIC as they are not part of the regulations the flight is operated under.

In your case you are under Part 91 which does not require an SIC. As a result you may not log SIC. Now under part 135 or part 121 there are regulations that may cause a carrier to require and SIC. in the circumstance you would be allowed to log SIC.

mshunter said:
Grey area. Does the captains type rating say "SIC required?"
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That is the only this I can see that would fall under "regulations" and would allow for the logging of SIC.
 
The 525 series can be flown as two crew or single pilot. The most important factor being if the captain's type rating says SIC required.

A 61.55 sign off is important too. Also it is very important to know something about the aircraft if you log the time. If you logged the time and asked me for a job I would ask you questions about the aircraft. If you didn't know the answer then IMHO it would be worse than not having any Cj2 time at all.

If your really worried about it log it in a separate logbook. You never know when it may come in handy.
 
No the captain's type does not need an SIC. And BigwaveDave do I need that 61.55 sign off just to act as SIC or is that just for the SIC type?
 
tommyk said:
No the captain's type does not need an SIC. And BigwaveDave do I need that 61.55 sign off just to act as SIC or is that just for the SIC type?
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The sign off is for domestic flights only. If you plan on going out of the country the SIC needs a Type.

Since the captain has a single pilot type you do not need to follow 61.55 as an SIC is not required by regulation.

What you need to do is reference the lease and insurance documents to see what training they require for the second pilot.
 
I have about 200 hours in a Cj1 acting as SIC. Fortunately for me the captain could not fly the aircraft single pilot. So we did a 61.55 sign off pretty much to the letter of the law. This was before a SIC type was required for overseas flights. I can only tell you my experiences and my opinion. A 61.55 sign off is required to act as SIC domestically. Get out your FAR book and look it up. Like Maurus said you don't need the sign off because effectively you are a passenger in the eyes of the FAA. I would get one (SIC sign off) anyway and make sure it is in your logbook. I would consider this a grey area thats why you should log it in a separate log book. The aircraft can be operated as two crew. So you need to work out something with the captain.

I would say part 91 there is a lot of leeway regarding the legality of logging SIC time. Like I said. Log the time in a separate logbook. If I were interviewing you and you had enough time to satisfy an insurance requirement and you could answer basic systems questions I would hire you. I feel this time would help you if you want to stay corporate. If you want to fly for American Airlines forget logging this time or even mentioning that you flew the Cj2 as an SIC whoever is interviewing you will open up an extra huge bottle of hater aid and rip you a new one. Regardless of what anyone says if this is your first opportunity to fly in an IFR environment in a jet take it for the experience. It will help down the road. Mostly it depends on your future goals.

DONT DONT DONT pay for training. If you need an SIC type don't pay for one. If they wont pay for your training go back to flight instruction. I didn't pay for my 525(s) type. I am so thankful for that. There isn't a day that goes by where I don't think thank god I didn't pay for my training. Mostly because even with a single pilot type I can't get a job flying a Cj. Also do not work for a substandard wage. Don't be that guy. An SIC should make around at least 200 a day on the low end. Trust me it will seem like a dream for the first few flights and then it will just turn into any other hard job you have had. As and SIC your main duty is to help the captain. This includes non flying duties like cleaning the aircraft.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the advice Dave and Maurus! I looked through the regs pretty hard before I posted this I thought I had it all down but there is always something I miss. I really thought you only needed the training listed in 61.55 to act as SIC and than if you wanted the SIC type you would need a sign off to give to the FSDO. But, I'm new to this game so I will trust in you. lol Anyways, I've been doing this now for about 75 hours and just have all these flight logs waiting to be put in my logbook. I first thought of logging it as dual received because the captain is also an MEI. I am pretty familiar with all the systems the captain has a great cheat sheet thats has all the essential information on it that helped with that. And dont worry Dave I am working for the 200 a day wage. I originally wanted to go to the airlines but after being exposed to the corporate life style I think I'm gonna try and stay on this side of the fence for now, but we will see what happens. Anyways thanks again!
 
Most corporate jobs will ask you what your time is in the type of airplane. While not legal, FAA time, they just want to know your experience. I would suggest just making a separate logbook column or something else to keep track of it.
 
Maurus said:
The aircraft is type certificated for a single pilot. You may not log SIC.
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That is simply not true. How many times do we have to go down this road. I think 1/2 of the bandwidth on this forum is used on that. I know people who have SIC time in a Cessna 172, and its totally legal. Why people don't understand things like this is beyond me.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
That is simply not true. How many times do we have to go down this road. I think 1/2 of the bandwidth on this forum is used on that. I know people who have SIC time in a Cessna 172, and its totally legal. Why people don't understand things like this is beyond me.
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I'm curious how he could log this if the captain is Single Pilot typed? Put the captain under the hood maybe?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
That is simply not true. How many times do we have to go down this road. I think 1/2 of the bandwidth on this forum is used on that. I know people who have SIC time in a Cessna 172, and its totally legal. Why people don't understand things like this is beyond me.
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Did you seriously not read my entire post?
 
SteveC said:
I'm curious how he could log this if the captain is Single Pilot typed? Put the captain under the hood maybe?
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I'm not saying that in this specific case, that he could log SIC. My post was more in regards to the point where he said if the aircraft was "type certificated for single pilot operations" means that logging SIC time was not kosher. When, that couldn't be further from the truth.
 
Maurus said:
This is the proper regulation for Logging SIC time. Note that the only way you can log SIC in a single pilot aircraft is if you are required to have an SIC based on FAA regulations. Insurance or outside contracts requiring an SIC are not enough to allow you to log SIC as they are not part of the regulations the flight is operated under.

In your case you are under Part 91 which does not require an SIC. As a result you may not log SIC. Now under part 135 or part 121 there are regulations that may cause a carrier to require and SIC. in the circumstance you would be allowed to log SIC.
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I like quoting myself. It is fun. Sorry that I may have forgotten safety pilot time, but who has safety pilot time in a jet?
 
BigWaveDave said:
I have about 200 hours in a Cj1 acting as SIC. Fortunately for me the captain could not fly the aircraft single pilot. So we did a 61.55 sign off pretty much to the letter of the law. This was before a SIC type was required for overseas flights. ............
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Just curious who signed off the training and the 8710 for your SIC training? Who is the "we" you mention? Was it the captain that is not supposed to fly without a SIC so therefore couldn't be training you (a non-type rated pilot) or did you get your training from a C525S type-rated pilot THEN go fly with the C525 Captain? This is one that a lot of people don't think about and some day a check of records is going to bite a pilot!

Also, as mentioned during international flights, you can log SIC if you have the appropriate certificate.
 
Here is a recent Chief Counsel Interpretation. Under Part 91, it appears one could log SIC under certain circumstances, e.g. autopilot removed. Look at the Minimum Crew List shown at the bottom of page one and top of page two.
 

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I just love these threads. Now that the regionals are hiring again I get to interview people with SIC in a King Air, C501, CJ2, C172 (!) etc...again.

Regardless of what someone here tells you, based on an interpretation of some regulation or opinion, just do this: visualize yourself at an interview, as we do the logbook review, and ask you about that SIC in that CJ2 or whatever. Don't put yourself in a situation where you have to defend it - just put it in a separate logbook, separate column in an electronic logbook (that can be hidden) or something. In the corporate world that may be acceptable, but you do yourself no good by interviewing at an airline claiming to have xxx hours SIC in a jet that clearly does not need one. Again, if you have to defend it-don't do it.
 
I know under 135 you can log SIC in a CJ even if the Capt has a single pilot type IF the companies' OPS SPEC's requires two pilots and you have the appropriate 135.2xx checkride and training.
 
pscraig said:
I just love these threads. Now that the regionals are hiring again I get to interview people with SIC in a King Air, C501, CJ2, C172 (!) etc...again.

Regardless of what someone here tells you, based on an interpretation of some regulation or opinion, just do this: visualize yourself at an interview, as we do the logbook review, and ask you about that SIC in that CJ2 or whatever. Don't put yourself in a situation where you have to defend it - just put it in a separate logbook, separate column in an electronic logbook (that can be hidden) or something. In the corporate world that may be acceptable, but you do yourself no good by interviewing at an airline claiming to have xxx hours SIC in a jet that clearly does not need one. Again, if you have to defend it-don't do it.
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Why would one have to "defend" legitimately logged flight time that placed in their FAR 61.51 logbook?

I can certainly understand an airline saying, "we discount SIC time in aircraft that don't require SICs" or "please filter out all safety pilot time" or "Cessna 152 SIC time not counted" or anything similar with respect to any other flight time, if they don't think it's of any value.

But with saying that one would have to "defend" legitimate entries in their logbook, you seem to be suggesting that you, as an interviewer, and the airlines in general, don't understand the regs. And considering that compared to simple 61.51 logging issues (most of which have consistent FAA interpretations going back 30 years), the regs that apply to commercial ops and Part 121 carriers are infinitely core complex, that's a pretty scary thought!
 
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