Logging Point-to-Point Cross-Country Time

[Joe]

A discussion has recently come up at my flight school between myself my coworkers (and some of our students) regarding the 500 hours of cross-country time required to act as PIC under IFR for a Part 135 operation as per § 135.243(c):

(c) Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR unless that person—

(1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and

(2) Has had at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including 500 hours of cross country flight time, 100 hours of night flight time, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight; and

(3) For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating; or

(4) For a helicopter, holds a helicopter instrument rating, or an airline transport pilot certificate with a category and class rating for that aircraft, not limited to VFR.

Now, § 61.1(b)(4)(i) defines cross-country as any flight involving a landing at another airport:

(4) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

Paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) give the "more than 50 nautical mile" requirements for private, instrument and commercial training, and later regulations in Part 61 give even more specific cross-country requirements for those certificates or ratings. Meeting Part 135 minimums doesn't fall under those paragraphs, so therefore any flight involving a landing at another airport, regardless of distance (i.e., less than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure), can be logged as cross-country time to meet these minimums. Many people are surprised to learn this (including myself way back when I did), as well as to meet the cross-country requirement for the ATP certificate you have to fly at least 50 NM from the point of departure but don't have to land (but that's a different topic for a different thread).

Now, here's where my coworker and I disagree: He says that if you fly to an airport 10 NM away and spend an hour doing pattern work and end up logging 1.5 hours of flight time, that you can only log the time spent in transit between those airports as "point-to-point" (P2P) cross-country time. When adding up his P2P time, he devised average times to and from our nearby airports that we often visit (e.g., .2 for PVD-OQU-PVD, .4 for PVD-SFZ-PVD, etc.). Those coworkers who say he makes a valid point argue that once you land there, Point B becomes Point A and you're no longer landing at another airport. I argue that you don't stop operating the airplane during the landing rollout or even taxiing; and that the flight doesn't end until the end of the lesson upon engine shutdown... in other words, Point B remains Point B, and you return to Point A and the flight ends where you started, therefore making the entire flight P2P cross-country time... and I've spoken with an equal number of people agree with me there. If he adds it up his way (which he did), he's 70 hours short of the P2P cross-country required for 135 IFR PIC... if he does it my way, he's got more than enough... I know FlightLogg.in logs it that way for me, and I believe the other electronic logbooks do as well... in fact I don't even know that you can reduce the P2P cross-country time since they do it automatically.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts on this are, particularly those who fly or have flown Part 135 and have had to add up this time to get the job in the first place and the technical/legal/reg experts on here: Is the whole flight, maneuvers and pattern work loggable as P2P, or only the time spent travelling between the two airports? I'm convinced he's wrong and isn't comfortable logging it as cross-country because it goes against the 50 NM definition most people have always known, and that he's short-changing himself significantly.

 

[dasleben]

I logged every bit of it. Built lots of point-to-point XC doing approaches (followed by a touch and go) at other airports when I was an instructor. He's short changing himself (and his students by teaching that) big time.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Duration of the flight = X/C time. I don't subtract the amount of time I spent in that one hour hold.

Besides, nothing says the route between those two airports was necessarily direct.

I am not even sure how I should go about logging glider X/C's, since they don't always terminate at an airport

 

[Joe]

Duration of the flight = X/C time. I don't subtract the amount of time I spent in that one hour hold.

Besides, nothing says the route between those two airports was necessarily direct.

I am not even sure how I should go about logging glider X/C's, since they don't always terminate at an airport

Log it! After all, 61.1 says another "point" other than departure... it doesn't specify it has to be an airport! Thanks for the quick replies guys; I've been trying to explain this to him but he won't hear it.

 

[Inverted]

Why would he not want to hear something that would not only be to his benefit, but because there is nothing in the FARs stating otherwise? Sounds like he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

 

[Joe]

Why would he not want to hear something that would not only be to his benefit, but because there is nothing in the FARs stating otherwise? Sounds like he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

I honestly have no idea... he's been doing this for over 2½ and is anxious to move on, and if anything I've always been on the conservative side when it comes to interpreting the regs and taking advantage of loopholes, yet I see absolutely nothing wrong with logging the whole thing... it's a lot like the debates between logging vs. acting as PIC, etc.: I've showed him the exact same regs I posted, and yet he's told one of my students that I'm essentially pencil-whipping my logbook by logging the whole thing. He's a smart guy, but stubborn... but aren't we all when it comes to this stuff...

 

[Stomp16]

Sounds like the guy is a lost cause. All you can do is explain and try to help him out. Now you have a possible student that needs 70hrs of XC time! ;-}

 

[A150K]

You're correct. Your co-worker is way overthinking it...

 

[z987k]

I honestly have no idea... he's been doing this for over 2½ and is anxious to move on, and if anything I've always been on the conservative side when it comes to interpreting the regs and taking advantage of loopholes, yet I see absolutely nothing wrong with logging the whole thing... it's a lot like the debates between logging vs. acting as PIC, etc.: I've showed him the exact same regs I posted, and yet he's told one of my students that I'm essentially pencil-whipping my logbook by logging the whole thing. He's a smart guy, but stubborn... but aren't we all when it comes to this stuff...

I used to do survey. On a lot of flights I'd go up for a whole tank of gas, probably not go 40 miles away, but then land and get fuel at an airport different than I took off from. Yep that was just 5.5 hours of p2p. Had my whole logbook gone through by my current employer(135), and they saw no problem with this, as neither do the regs.

Your coworker can log his time however he wants. You don't HAVE to log anything but for currency.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The only potential limitation I can think of is if you abuse it. As an extreme example, if it takes 10 minutes to get to the other airport (or sat 30 minutes for that student pilot >50 NM cross country) and then the pilot does 4 hours of touch and goes, I can see the FAA taking the position that at some point the nature of the flight as a cross country is a sham and will find a way to interpret the reg to get the result it wants.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Log it all and be done with it. I've never had anyone ask or say , "did you do pattern work on your xxx cross country time?"

 

[b182fly]

What if you were a private pilot woking on commercial/multi? Any time as cross country in that course was for a rating. Can youmstill log going to another airport as p2p?

 

[Shiftace]

I had this same problem a few days ago. I had logged X hours for one of my X/C trips with an instructor where I did my 3 take offs and landings at a airport with control tower. Was not sure if I logged the pattern work as X/C time. Another instructor told me that I can log the entire flight (including pattern work) as X/C - as long as the first leg is 50 + NM.

Now, when logging a flight - and you use VOR to VOR navigation, the distance is 55 NM. However, point to point is 47 NM ... is this still considered a XC flight?

 

[Matt13C]

I had this same problem a few days ago. I had logged X hours for one of my X/C trips with an instructor where I did my 3 take offs and landings at a airport with control tower. Was not sure if I logged the pattern work as X/C time. Another instructor told me that I can log the entire flight (including pattern work) as X/C - as long as the first leg is 50 + NM.

Now, when logging a flight - and you use VOR to VOR navigation, the distance is 55 NM. However, point to point is 47 NM ... is this still considered a XC flight?

Just have two columns, less than or equal to 50nm and greater than 50nm XC flights. If you land at another airport it is a XC, how far away that airport is, straight line distance, not on airways, determines where you put the time. As long as one landing, any leg not just the first, is more than 50nm from the original departure airport, the entire flight can be logged in the greater than 50nm column.

See 61.1(b)(4)(i) and (ii)

 

[ozziecat35]

Moral of the story, fly the extra few miles to make it > or = 50nm.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

The only potential limitation I can think of is if you abuse it. As an extreme example, if it takes 10 minutes to get to the other airport (or sat 30 minutes for that student pilot >50 NM cross country) and then the pilot does 4 hours of touch and goes, I can see the FAA taking the position that at some point the nature of the flight as a cross country is a sham and will find a way to interpret the reg to get the result it wants.

FWIW, our FSDO gave us this exact interpretation, although I have never seen a legitimate interpretation from FAA legal on the subject.

 

[Shiftace]

Just have two columns, less than or equal to 50nm and greater than 50nm XC flights. If you land at another airport it is a XC, how far away that airport is, straight line distance, not on airways, determines where you put the time. As long as one landing, any leg not just the first, is more than 50nm from the original departure airport, the entire flight can be logged in the greater than 50nm column.

See 61.1(b)(4)(i) and (ii)

Interesting. I was told (by 3 different instructors) that the first landing has to be over 50nm, in order for the flights to be counted as XC flights. The following flights, as long as there are no massive delays, even if less than 50 nm still count towards the total XC time.

 

[Matt13C]

Interesting. I was told (by 3 different instructors) that the first landing has to be over 50nm, in order for the flights to be counted as XC flights. The following flights, as long as there are no massive delays, even if less than 50 nm still count towards the total XC time.

I've never seen or heard that before, I am not sure where they are getting their info from.

61.1(b)(4)(ii)(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

There is no mention of a specific leg needing to be longer than 50nm, just that one landing needs to be more than 50nm from the original point of departure.

Also, remember the 50nm rule is for ratings, XC in general is defined as a landing at a point other than the departure airport. So if you go up and do short hops but never get further than 20nm from your home field, it still counts as XC time, just not toward XC time needed for specific ratings. You can still use it towards your 135 mins.

 

[Shiftace]

Also, remember the 50nm rule is for ratings, XC in general is defined as a landing at a point other than the departure airport. So if you go up and do short hops but never get further than 20nm from your home field, it still counts as XC time, just not toward XC time needed for specific ratings. You can still use it towards your 135 mins.

I have not flown much recently. But, that is very interesting - and something to remember. I was always under the impression that XC had to be 50 nm or more. Most of my XCs have been towards the PPL and am working towards the Instrument ticket. So, the 50 nm rule is applicable to the XC, right?

Also, if my flight has 3 legs - A-B-C, where A-b is 25 nm, and B-C is 20 miles - does that count, if the distance between A-C is 50 nm+, but the leg was never flown?

 

[Matt13C]

I have not flown much recently. But, that is very interesting - and something to remember. I was always under the impression that XC had to be 50 nm or more. Most of my XCs have been towards the PPL and am working towards the Instrument ticket. So, the 50 nm rule is applicable to the XC, right?

Also, if my flight has 3 legs - A-B-C, where A-b is 25 nm, and B-C is 20 miles - does that count, if the distance between A-C is 50 nm+, but the leg was never flown?

I think the 50 nm rule is pushed by instructors because as far as the student goes it is really what matters at that point and also a bit self serving as they can log it also. It seems like one area that goes under taught is what and how to log flight time.

Regarding your question, as long as a landing is 50nm from point A the entire flight can be logged as greater than 50nm XC time. Individual leg length doesnt matter, just if you are over 50nm away from your departure airport.

Fly A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-A, all legs under 50 nm distance, but D is 50.1 from A so you can log the entire flight as greater than 50nm XC time.