Logging PIC and Dual

mastermags

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
I did a thread search but couldnt find what I was looking for, so sorry if this has been repeatedly asked.

My cfi friend and I were going over regs the other day and he showed me a book called "Far's explained" or something like that. I dont remember the author. Anyway, it said that I can log PIC and dual if Im receiving instruction in a plane I am rated in and I am the sole manipulator of the controls (ie, instrument training in a single engine airplane). This sounded good, but somehow wrong. The author was an aviation lawyer, so I guess he knows his stuff, but can anyone out there give me some feedback before I make some stupid logbook mistakes. Part 61.113 (a) comes to mind.
 
What is the question?

If you are flying with an instructor...it is dual if the instructor is logging the time as PIC also.
 
Yes, both the student and the CFI can log PIC time on the same flight as long as the student holds at least a pilot pilot certificate for the category and class of aircraft being flown. The student is acting as sole manipulator but the Instructor is exercising operational control and authority over the flight. In essence, the CFI is "acting as pic" but the student can "log pic time" because they are sole manipulator. For instance, during my instrument and commercial training, I logged all the flights with my instructor as Dual and PIC. The exception: I never logged PIC time when I was recieving training in a complex or high performance airplane until I recieved the logbook endorsements for those types of planes. The high performance/complex/tailwheel pic issue seems to be up for debate in the opinions of many pilots and instructors, however.
 
The question is, can I log the time as dual and PIC... according to this guy I can, but it still doesnt seem right to me.
 
yes you can(and should) log it as both PIC and Dual received, as long as you're rated in the plane, you are sole manipulator of the controls and you are receiving instrucion.
 
Yeah...you have to log it as dual. The instructor is also logging the time as PIC.(two people in charge) Your logbook should say "dual received" at the header.

I believe you may be getting it confused with SIC. (i could be totally wrong)

Have you not been logging time with your instructor as dual and PIC?
 
Thanks for your reply

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The high performance/complex/tailwheel pic issue seems to be up for debate in the opinions of many pilots and instructors, however.



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I would also not log PIC in these planes if I had no endorsement and was receiving dual, but I have logged PIC in a tailwheel plane when flying with others (non CFI's) if I was the guy flying the plane.... do you think this inconsistency will raise red flags on a future interview?
 
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do you think this inconsistency will raise red flags on a future interview?

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No. Its legal.

Its been said 800 gazillion times on here, but logging PIC and acting as PIC are two completely seperate issues.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your reply

[ QUOTE ]
The high performance/complex/tailwheel pic issue seems to be up for debate in the opinions of many pilots and instructors, however.



[/ QUOTE ]

I would also not log PIC in these planes if I had no endorsement and was receiving dual, but I have logged PIC in a tailwheel plane when flying with others (non CFI's) if I was the guy flying the plane.... do you think this inconsistency will raise red flags on a future interview?

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I have had the same question with the whole "taildragger" thing. My friend has a cub and a super cub. We fly it around and I am "sole manipulator" for a good portion of the time.

I don't log the time because I don't have a tailwheel endorsement. I personally don't think it is a problem since I am not taxiing or landing or taking off. I just don't log it because who knows what some nut will say at an interview.
 
So you logged PIC in a tailwheel without an endorsement and witout a CFI giving you instruction?

That probably won't raise any flags if it was just a few flights, but if someone decides to really scrutinize your logbook they may ask you why you were acting as PIC on a plane you can't legally fly? I probably wouldn't have logged those flights.....
 
[ QUOTE ]
So you logged PIC in a tailwheel without an endorsement and witout a CFI giving you instruction?

That probably won't raise any flags if it was just a few flights, but if someone decides to really scrutinize your logbook they may ask you why you were acting as PIC on a plane you can't legally fly? I probably wouldn't have logged those flights.....

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The question I raise is this...I can legally fly a single engine airplane, I just can't legally taxi/takeoff/land the airplane. Is this true?
 
Sure you can. You just can't ACT as PIC.

So I'll say it again: logging and acting are two completely different things. Its entirely possible depending on the situation, that you can act as PIC without being able to log it as PIC, or that you can log it as PIC without being able to act as PIC. Gotta love the FAA, eh?
crazy.gif
 
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I don't log the time because I don't have a tailwheel endorsement. I personally don't think it is a problem since I am not taxiing or landing or taking off. I just don't log it because who knows what some nut will say at an interview.

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I was under the impression you could still log that time at PIC. If you have your private, you are able to log it since you are rated category and class. There isn't a tail dragger class fine with logging at as PIC. Just don't log the landing unless the other person with you is a CFI.
 
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Sure you can. You just can't ACT as PIC.

So I'll say it again: logging and acting are two completely different things. Its entirely possible depending on the situation, that you can act as PIC without being able to log it as PIC, or that you can log it as PIC without being able to act as PIC. Gotta love the FAA, eh?
crazy.gif


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AAAHHHHH the FAA...

almost as good as the smell of napalm in the morning!
 
Just so you would know, the tail dragger time I have is in my granddad's cub with him flying with me. He is not a CFI, but he is a former chief pilot of a major airline and a former military pilot instructor... so he knows how to teach. With that said, since the time is legal, and I dont consider it shady under the circumstances, and it is just for a few flights, I dont believe I should have any problems at a future interview. After all, those 250 hours for commercial seem very hard to come by if you are having to rent every single one of them.
crazy.gif
 
Yeah, if anything, you'll just have to explain that you did have an appropriatly rated pilot onboard who was "acting as PIC".

The regs say you cannot "act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane" unless you have the tailwheel endorsement. Doesn't say anything about logging it. You have to be "rated" in an airplane to log PIC time as sole manipulator, but the tailwheel endorsement is not a "rating", it's an endorsement.

This might rub some old-timers who interview you the wrong way, legal or not. Then again, it shouldn't be a big enough issue to even notice unless you logged a large percentage of your flight time in this manner.
 
I would recommend spending a few minutes reading the great stuff at http://www.propilot.com for anyone confused by the difference between logging vs acting pic; as said they are two totally different ballgames; and to be legal it's important to know which is which
 
It's understanding that it's all so confusing. After all, it's only been the rule for over 20 years.

FWIW:

==============================
The Rules of Logging PIC

Basic Principles

The "golden key" to understanding "The Rules" is to always keep in mind that the FAR treats "acting as pilot in command" and "logging pilot in command time" as =completely= different concepts. It's the difference between (1) having final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of a flight (commonly referred to as "acting as PIC") and (2) writing numbers in columns on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand. They =never= mean the same thing and they have completely different rules. A pilot can be responsible for a flight and =not= be permitted to write those numbers down. A pilot can be technically nothing but a passenger in the FAA's eyes and be permitted to write time in that PIC column. In some circumstances, two pilots may sit at that desk and write numbers in their logbooks, even though, quite obviously, only one can bear the ultimate responsibility for a flight.

The known universe of logging rules is contained in FAR 61.51. Unless 61.51 specifically directs you to it, answering a logging question by including the word "acting" or pointing to any other FAR is always a mistake.

This is a simplified version of the rules of logging as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly and consistently interpreted by the FAA Legal Counsel for at least 20 years. It's limited to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.

Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. 61.51(e)(3)

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.

[Other Rules omitted - irrelevant to the discussion]


Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper while drinking beer
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.


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