Logging of PIC during instrument training?

z987k said:
I think he was saying that they "allow" it(lol), but advise them of what some regional carriers might have you do when you apply.
It's still dishonest nor their call.
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They're not disallowing anything and just trying to be helpful, what's the big deal?
 
gotWXdagain said:
They're not disallowing anything and just trying to be helpful, what's the big deal?
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It's what videographer said -
"Consequently, most of the students (and instructors) don't realize that it is legal. When I brought it up at UND I got an answer of "well, the airlines won't count PIC that you logged at the same time as dual""
The second part is not really true. The first part is the harm done by being dishonest.
 
pete2800 said:
While we're on the subject of 'advising' what an airline might find objectionable.... For the record, no one I've ever interviewed with has had an issue with the fact that my totals are done in pencil.
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No one I've interviewed with has looked at my logbook. I could have done it in crayon it seems.
 
That is a shame UND does not allow you to log PIC in your own logbook. I would go back and put in the PIC time that is rightfully yours. I would fight that one to the death.
 
gotWXdagain said:
They're not disallowing anything and just trying to be helpful, what's the big deal?
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They are being misleading. That's what the big deal is. They are causing confusion, that's what the big deal is. They are making it seem as if they have their own rules, that's what the big deal is. They are causing some people to search for different CFI's because they were taught something that isn't correct, that's what the big deal is.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
It's not just UND. All the puppy mills breed this incest of CFI'ing that causes issues on all kinds of things.
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Not all of them. I went to ATP, and this was a non issue. Once you got the certificate, you were logging PIC time if you were at the controls. Even if there was a CFI there. How the hell do you think I got my 50 hours of X-country experince in the IFR system without a Inst. rating for the instrument? With a CFI in the right seat of a 172.

*sorry if that seems like I am lighting you up. Just frustrated about the whole "Wull, wull, wull, at (insert school here), we did it that way, so it must be true!"* It's not directed at you.* The problem I see with most graduates of collegiate programs is they don't think outside of the box, and, within the regs. I have been cleaning up the mess left by one over the course of the last few months. He wasn't bad at what he did, just narrow minded and did it exactly like they did at his school. I am not training guys right now that plan on going on to the airllines. I am training guys who want to do it recreationally. So the training is a little bit different because you won't have the chance at other certificates to polish things that are passable, all be it, poor in terms of airmanship.
 
mshunter said:
Not all of them. I went to ATP, and this was a non issue. Once you got the certificate, you were logging PIC time if you were at the controls. Even if there was a CFI there. How the hell do you think I got my 50 hours of X-country experince in the IFR system without a Inst. rating for the instrument? With a CFI in the right seat of a 172.

*sorry if that seems like I am lighting you up. Just frustrated about the whole "Wull, wull, wull, at (insert school here), we did it that way, so it must be true!"* It's not directed at you.* The problem I see with most graduates of collegiate programs is they don't think outside of the box, and, within the regs. I have been cleaning up the mess left by one over the course of the last few months. He wasn't bad at what he did, just narrow minded and did it exactly like they did at his school. I am not training guys right now that plan on going on to the airllines. I am training guys who want to do it recreationally. So the training is a little bit different because you won't have the chance at other certificates to polish things that are passable, all be it, poor in terms of airmanship.
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I wasn't so much speaking toward the ATP's of the world, generally the people who go there are smart enough to know better. It's the ones that go to the UND/ERAU of the world because they bought into a shiny brochure on flying, that simply don't know better, learn it that way, then go on to teach it that way, because "that's how we do it". It's no wonder that certain colleges have graduates that have a stigma with them, they deserve it in general. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.
 
The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
So whatever the airlines do or do not accept is up to them to decide. For the purposes listed above, sole manipulator can log PIC if they are rated for the aircraft.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I wasn't so much speaking toward the ATP's of the world, generally the people who go there are smart enough to know better. It's the ones that go to the UND/ERAU of the world because they bought into a shiny brochure on flying, that simply don't know better, learn it that way, then go on to teach it that way, because "that's how we do it". It's no wonder that certain colleges have graduates that have a stigma with them, they deserve it in general. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.
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Well now, the "pilot mills" may do some quirky things, but their graduates sure are successful. Other pilots may think what they wish of ERAU/UND graduates, but the airlines hire them so it doesn't really matter in the end.
 
Shiftace said:
His reasoning was this - "you could not do that flight without the instructor because you are not rated in the plane while it is IFR. I could be wrong on that point but I know that if you are in actual IFR conditions then you could not log pic."

Where do they get this from? Beats me.
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They get it from the conceptual disconnect that takes place because the FAA chose to have different purposes, definitions and standards for "logging" as opposed to "being" pilot in command. Some were simply never taught the correct meaning of the rules (even though it's been the FAA official published position for more than 30 years); others just can't get their heads around it; others just don't like it and refuse to accept it; and still others have a hard time changing their beliefs even when presented with information.
 
For the love of God, UND ABSOLUTELY allows you to log PIC as sole manipulator. There is NO policy against this and, in fact, it is encouraged. If the CFI doesn't want to log it that way, that's the CFI's warped opinion, NOT UND. The Records Department does not "steal" your logbook and tell you what's legal and what's not and make changes, they simply look at the logbook, make sure the times add up to meet the course requirements and that there's nothing whacky like 1.5 night + 1.5 day on a 1.5 flight. If there is a discrepancy, it is left to the CFI to make the correction.

As far as airlines go, I know that the flight times on AirlineApps won't add up correctly if you include PIC time you logged at the same time as dual received. In other words, you just have to do a little math to subtract that PIC time out for all the times to add up correctly. That's just the way their website works for some reason.
 
My CFII writes down both PIC and Dual Received time when I fly with him. Is this right? He is the text book definition of a "puppy/pilot mill" instructor so i prefer to trust but verify everything that he says.
 
Not a stab at anyone directly, but a records department. Really?

I talked to a kid a couple years ago, (Private Pilot). Who said it's not legal to log any PIC time at all when an Instructor is on board. I laughed, hard.

Another one:

CFI: You tell me why you think you should be able to log PIC in that Arrow without a complex endorsement?

Me: Explains the difference between (Logging) and (Acting) as PIC.

Shut him up in about 30 seconds.
 
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