Logging Landings/Approaches
- Thread starter LucasM
- Start date
subpilot
Squawking 7600
I log the landings because whether I am on the controls completely, somewhat or not at all... I am still 100% mentally involved and responsible for each and every landing that my student does with me in the right seat. My hands and feet are always .01 microseconds away from taking over, if needed.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
You can log whatever you want, but if your logbook is a record of your piloting experiences for the purposes of currency and advanement, you shouldn't follow this advice.
Section 61.57: Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
You can come up with a thousand reasons why you feel responsible and decide to put a student's landings in your logbook, but there's no circumventing "sole manipulator" rule.
Personally, when I'm with a student, I only log the landings I demonstrate. If he flew the landing, it goes in his book, if I flew it, it goes in mine. That way, my logbook is a record of my experiences I've accomplished, not the things I've watched.
Ruff T
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: I agree with Nihon when it comes to landings, but when it comes to approaches, I log the approaches that I do with a student, because even though I'm not manipulating the flight controls during the approach, I'm actively participating during the entire approach process. I'm actively making sure that the student stays on course, and help them maintain proper tracking of the approach course.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
The rules are pretty straightforward.
Logging landings for currency requires that the logging pilot be the "sole manipulator." OTOH, a CFI does not need to be current on landings when giving instruction (weird but true).
As Nihon said, you can come up with asll sorts of reasons why you should be allowed to but, so far, anyway, logging the student's landing has the same legal basis as logging a landing when sitting in seat 17C on an Airbus.
Logging approaches requires that the person logging them have "performed" them and be in actual or simulated instrument conditions. Since the CFI isn't usually wearing a hood at the same time as the student (we hope), they need to be in actual.
Whether a supervising CFI is "performing" them used to be a big controversy - until the FAA Chief Counsel settled it once and for all: http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=3#17
Logging landings for currency requires that the logging pilot be the "sole manipulator." OTOH, a CFI does not need to be current on landings when giving instruction (weird but true).
As Nihon said, you can come up with asll sorts of reasons why you should be allowed to but, so far, anyway, logging the student's landing has the same legal basis as logging a landing when sitting in seat 17C on an Airbus.
Logging approaches requires that the person logging them have "performed" them and be in actual or simulated instrument conditions. Since the CFI isn't usually wearing a hood at the same time as the student (we hope), they need to be in actual.
Whether a supervising CFI is "performing" them used to be a big controversy - until the FAA Chief Counsel settled it once and for all: http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=3#17
Thanks for posting this man!
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I log all landings but I have flights where there is no dual given to retain my night currency. These are what I use for my currency requirements if the FAA were to ask.
The reason why I log all landings? Habit and I need to write them down somewhere with my students anyway.
The reason why I log all landings? Habit and I need to write them down somewhere with my students anyway.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
How can the FAA tell which is which - without you telling them?
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
It becomes more of the honor system 
But unless it comes down to a currency issue, I doubt any one is going to ask you about your landing count.
Approaches, noone has ever asked me about the number, only if I am current.
But usually people will log only landing they either assist in, or do themselves.
The same somewhat applies to approaches, because if you fly through a cloud at any point on the approach, initial, missed etc, you could log it.
Those are the rules I usually adhere too.
But unless it comes down to a currency issue, I doubt any one is going to ask you about your landing count.
Approaches, noone has ever asked me about the number, only if I am current.
But usually people will log only landing they either assist in, or do themselves.
The same somewhat applies to approaches, because if you fly through a cloud at any point on the approach, initial, missed etc, you could log it.
Those are the rules I usually adhere too.
jlmflys
Well-Known Member
I only log approaches and instrument time when I am giving duel instruction in actual IMC. Now as far as landings, what action do you think the FAA is going to take if there is an accendent or incident on landing when an instructor is in the aircraft? You might what to log it if you have the potential to get violated for "Just being there".
T56Maniac
Member
:yeahthat:LOL, good one! I log all landings and only log approaches when IMC or demonstrating.:yeahthat:
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
You might =not= want to log it if you have the potential to get violated for "just being there." (assuming there is such a thing to begin with)
It's in the course of a violation that logbooks get examined and stuff that doesn't look right gets investigated - like those 7 landings =you= logged on that 1/2 hour dual flight when your student was supposedly doing touch & goes just before her solo.
How about your liability as an instructor when your student crashes on solo and your logbook says that the student never did a landing by herself, but only followed you ont he controls while you were the "sole manipulator"?
Assuming you get violated for "just being there" unless it's something really serious, you're probably looking at a short suspension or at worst a 709 ride.
Guess what the penalty is for falsifying a logbook.
Yep. Good one!
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
The exact same way as if they look on many other people's log books, the remarks section.
Also if they had half a brain they could just take the proper definition for currency landings and find my flights with no dual given and figure it out from there. Not really that hard. In the last month I have had 3 night flights with no dual given and 5 landings total of which at least 3 landings had to be a full stop, otherwise I would currently be on my way to setting a record for the longest flight in a Piper Arrow if they weren't to a full stop.
And where in the regs does it say that in order to log landings you must be the sole manipulator of the controls? Only for passenger currency requirements.
Like I stated above, if an FAA inspector has half a brain, it will be obvious where my currency landings are when they see that there is no dual given. Unless you are in an aircraft where an SIC is required, there is no second guessing who was the "sole manipulator of the flight controls".
T56Maniac
Member
FAR61.51(e)(3)
"An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."
If the instructor takes controls for ANY reason on pre-solo landings, the student is NOT ready for a solo flight.........now that we have stated that, who said anything about the student not logging landings???? The student logs the landings in his book and I log the landings in mine. I do this because I'm coaching the student to the runway..... and believe it or not, I learn something new every landing. However, this is different for my personal currency.
Now, I've looked thru FAR61.51 and could not find anything that states that an authorized flight instructor could NOT log landings while coaching students....maybe I have overlooked something. Let me know.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
That's it. If you log something the reasonable assumption is that it was logged for an FAA purpose - that you logged it in order to to show qualification or currency. If you want to enter something for another purpose, just say so.
With landings, there is no FAA purpose associated with logging a landing while sitting in row 18C, nor logging a landing that you were not the sole manipulator of.
It's fun to play with this stuff in a vacuum. But if the issue comes up at all, the chances are that it will come up in the context of an investigation where something else went haywire, whether an incident or accident or just pissing some inspector off during a ramp check.
Then you end up like the type-rating applicant who overstated his time in type and ended up arguing that it didn't matter because the "real" time exceeded the requirements anyway.
DaveC
Well-Known Member
Just to throw my $.02 in, I log one landing for the flight if I had to put a hand on the controls during at least one of the student's landings.
If you're just trying to stay current, an active instructor teaching primary students is sure to demonstrate at least three landings every 90 days.
If you're just trying to stay current, an active instructor teaching primary students is sure to demonstrate at least three landings every 90 days.