That is my argument, as well, but you know how it can be dealing with DPEs.
Yes. You have to hit them with a rolled up newspaper sometimes. Here's one from the old Part 61 FAQs:
QUESTION: I hold a private pilot certificate with an airplane single engine land and instrument airplane rating. I'm working on receiving my commercial pilot certificate, with an airplane multiengine land and instrument ratings.
I was sent home from a checkride by an examiner due to incomplete endorsements and log book issues. I have a question regarding the log books entries for the flight time required to meet 61.129(b)(4). I have perused the part 61 FAQ, and it appears to be in conflict with the requirements of the examiner.
Per § 61.51, I understand I cannot log PIC time in a multi-engine airplane, since I do not hold an airplane multiengine rating. Per § 61.129(b)(4), time spent "performing the duties of pilot-in-command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" may be credited toward the 10 hours required by that rule.
The examiner wants to see these flights in my logbook with the time logged in the “PIC” column and not logged in the "Dual Received" column. He additionally wants each flight to carry the wording “performed as PIC” in the instructor's handwriting and with the instructor's signature. Is that correct logging? I don't see how it can be, given the requirements of § 61.51.
The examiner also wants my form FAA Form 8710-1 application to show (at least) 10 hours of PIC time in the Beechcraft Duchess (BE-76) in which I'm taking the test. He specifically wants to see this in Section II.A, box "2b" of the form. Is this correct? I'm concerned about this because the box is marked simply "Pilot in command," and does not contain the “performing the duties of pilot in command” wording. I want to be sure my application is accurate.
Also, is it possible for me to receive any instruction and also "perform the duties of PIC" at the same time? I'm not asking this in order to combine the requirements of § 61.129(b)(3) and § 61.129(b)(4). I have over 34 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for this rating. I just want to be sure I understand what needs to happen on flights where I "perform the duties of PIC" to meet the requirements of § 61.129(b)(4). Is being sole manipulator of the controls enough? (With very minor exceptions where I asked the instructor to demonstrate a maneuver, I've been the sole manipulator of the controls on every flight I've taken since my first multiengine airplane lesson). Also, I received a logbook endorsement from my instructor midway through my training wherein he stated that I was qualified to perform the duties of PIC (that is, it's a solo endorsement).
Finally, I want to be certain that I meet the requirements of § 61.129(b)(3)(i). I have 5.3 hours of simulated and actual instrument time in the Beech Duchess. So I have the five hours of instrument training in a multiengine airplane required by § 61.129(b)(3)(i). My question is whether the other 5 hours (for a total of 10 hours) needs to be specifically in preparation for the commercial pilot certificate, or if my original instrument training time (in pursuit of my instrument rating) and training time spent in the pursuit of an Instrument Competency Check may be credited toward the requirements of this section.
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(b)(4) and § 61.51(e)(1)(i); An applicant may not log as Pilot-In-Command (PIC) for time acquired while performing the duties of pilot-in-command with an authorized instructor unless the person holds an airplane multiengine land rating on his/her pilot certificate. For logging purposes, the time shall be logged in the AMEL column, conditions of flight column, dual received column, and total time column. In the remarks column, your flight instructor should record “PIC training per § 61.129(b)(4).”
For example, let’s say the applicant performs a 5 hour cross-country flight with an authorized instructor aboard for the § 61.129(b)(4)(i) requirement. In recording this time (i.e., “. . . performing the duties of pilot in command . . . with an authorized instructor . . .”) in the applicant’s logbook, it would read as follows:
Airplane multiengine land time: 5 hours
Cross-country time: 5 hours
Dual Received time: 5 hours
Total Time: 5 hours
Description of training: PIC training per § 61.129(b)(4).
John Doe, CFI #5555555, Exp. 12-31-00
In answer to your question concerning where to record the 10 hours of performing duties of pilot in command on the FAA Form 8710-1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, it is understood that the application doesn’t have a performing duties of pilot in command column. The 10 hours performing the duties as PIC with an instructor on board should be listed in the “Pilot in Command” column of the “Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application” (FAA Form 8710-1).
In answer to your question concerning whether it is possible for you to receive instruction while also "performing the duties of PIC." The intent of this provision in § 61.129(b)(4) [i.e., “. . . performing the duties of pilot in command . . . with an authorized instructor . . .”] is to permit an authorized instructor to be aboard the multiengine airplane and the instructor should only act like an SIC. The instructor should observe, evaluate, and may train the student on performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane (e.g., CRM training). The instructor should confine their activities to giving training on “. . . performing the duties of pilot in command . . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) . . .” The instructor should put more emphasis on acting like an SIC so the applicant gets the benefit and experience of performing the duties of a pilot in command in crew concept setting (e.g. CRM training). The intent of § 61.129(b)(4), in essence, is to provide for the kind of training that is commonly referred to as crew resource management (CRM) training.
In answer to your question concerning whether “. . . the other 5 hours (for a total of 10 hours) needs to be specifically in preparation for the commercial pilot certificate, or if your original instrument training time (in pursuit of my instrument rating) and training time spent in the pursuit of an Instrument Competency Check may be credited toward the requirements of this section.” If an applicant already holds an instrument rating, and is seeking an additional aircraft class rating within the same category of aircraft rating then that applicant need not accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .”. However, the instructor will be expected to provide the applicant with enough instrument training in order for the applicant to demonstrate satisfactory proficiency and competency on Area of Operation VII Navigation.
For further explanation here is an excerpt of the preamble of the final rule correction document that was issued in the Federal Register (78 FR 20284; Amdt. No. 61-104) on April 23, 1998:
In addition, the FAA has revised § 61.129(b)(4) to permit an applicant for a commercial pilot certificate with a multiengine rating to credit the 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of PIC in a multiengine airplane required by that paragraph toward the 100 hours of PIC flight time required under § 61.129(b)(2). This revision is consistent with the provisions of § 61.129(b) as proposed in Notice No. 95-11. As previously noted, proposed § 61.129(b)(4) would have required an applicant to accomplish solo flight time in a multiengine airplane. The solo flight time would have constituted PIC flight time; therefore, the applicant would have been able to credit that flight time toward the requirements of § 61.129(b)(2). However, under § 61.129(b)(4) as adopted in the final rule, an applicant would be performing the duties of PIC rather than acting as PIC. Consequently, that flight time does not constitute PIC flight time. Therefore, the FAA has revised § 61.129(b)(4) to permit the crediting of flight time accomplished under that paragraph toward the requirements of § 61.129(b)(2). However, this revision does not permit an applicant to log the flight time required under § 61.129(b)(4) as PIC flight time under § 61.51(e) unless the applicant holds a private pilot certificate with a multiengine rating and chooses to accomplish the requirements with an authorized instructor.
